I received answers to many of the questions I had asked today, and will be receiving a follow-up which should be helpful to anyone considering NAU. I'm very grateful for the time and the open discussion I had with Rebecca about the program.
I think there is a real danger in assuming that NAU's PL program, in regards to coursework & credit hours, works exactly like the Big Three and most other schools. I mean, I have spent the last few weeks reading, in great depth, their website and anything I can find talking about their program in articles & grant proposals, but I did not really grasp exactly what the "deconstructed the courses" thing they were talking about meant until I talked to Rebecca today.
In brief, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In this case, I found a rivet. That's not bad, in fact, I came away thinking it was a net positive. I'm talking about their competency model and how their courses/tasks work. More just below as I summarize what I got answers on.
1. NAU's PL program is competency based. Yes you've read about it, I've read about it, but what is difficult to grasp in just reading about it, is that they have DECONSTRUCTED many of the traditional college courses (English, Sociology, History), and created say (I'm giving a totally made-up example), 8 competency tasks that must be learned/demonstrated before you would meet this requirement. The courses are all integrated, you may be doing a paper based on a topic in Sociology's history for example (completely made-up example).
1a. What this means for people on this forum -
- You can transfer and receive credit for CBE exams (and transfer credit), but in the above (made-up) example, if you only transferred in English and Sociology, you would still have to complete all 8 competency tasks (although they should be easier).
- Since there are no CBE options for the Major or the Minor, this is not a problem there. For the Language requirement, there is a CBE option. This is only a problem with the General Ed requirements.
- You are able to meet individual course requirements, ie - MATH115 is "stand-alone", or maybe the blocks in whole.
SUMMARY - CBE or transfer credits may not remove tasks/requirements in their system for General Ed requirements
2. They have a built-in CBE option. You can pass the pre-test for a B for most competencies (I'm guessing you won't be able to for a handful). You can then challenge for an A. If you fail the pre-test, it will tell you what you need to study in the material - you study that, and you can re-take the test at anytime, rinse & repeat until you pass. It's basically like ALEKS guys.
SUMMARY - Their pre-test/pass system works sorta like ALEKS from what I understand. Ie they have a built-in CBE option for most of the degree (not for the internship for example).
3. ACE Credits & National Credits - It was hinted at in their material, but they are pretty open about Nationally-accredited coursework. They still want to see that it was not some worthless course, but they are not limited to Regional only. As far as ACE credits, at this time, it is, as suspected, Millitary-specific, ie, nothing that we're aware of. May change in the future.
SUMMARY - No ACE (ie Straighterline, ALEKS), Nationally accredited coursework - give it a shot.
4. Transfer Credits - 64 credits from 2 year schools, 90 credits from 4 year schools, 30 credit (opps, they call them units!) residency.
5. Financial Aid - Check back around the end of the year. 529 - not sure, need to check with Financial Aid.
6. How Semesters Work - Unlike WGU, there are no requirement for completing a certain number of courses by the end of the semester - they don't care at all (other than it's your money). For financial aid reasons, you may need to kick it up a notch, they will help you select tasks that will appear on your semester transcript to allow you to meet attendance requirements. You can take time off between semesters, up to 18 months, your tasks will remain frozen, although, I'm guessing this is not a good idea (especially for loan reasons or attending another college).
7. Internship - They can work to place you, but as most students are working adults, this is typically something involving your workplace, as appropriate (you may not be able to do IT stuff at McDonalds for example).
8. New Majors - Currently evaluating, it's a long process.
9. NAU Transcripts - They talk about you receiving two transcripts. One is a competency transcript, with more details, etc - it is hoped that this might better help future employers evaluate what you may have learned and what real skills you have achieved. The other is a traditional transcript. As discussed, they combine the competency tasks into individual courses. I'm not entirely sure how this works with Mastery challenges.
10. Mastery Challenges for an A - Not a ton of info here, it does not sound like it is a cake-walk, as it is intended to reflect academic rigorousness, but they also don't have data yet, as the program has only been live for six weeks. It will be adjusted if appropriate. What I'm also not sure about, is how this will work with constructing your transcript from the competency tasks. Is there a Mastery for each task? Or only for a group of tasks? How do you end up with an A in English for example given the (made-up) example above? Not sure...
11. General Ed Courses - There is a breakdown (in other posts I've made and on their site) of the general ed requirements and how they break down into categories. Due to the nature of how they deconstruct the competencies required, there is a SET (ie you cannot pick courses to meet requirements within their task system) list of courses that will appear on your transcript (discussed in #9 above). This isn't on their website, I'll do a follow-up when I receive this list. What I'm trying to say is that you can't pick from 5 courses in order to meet their CU (Cultural Understanding) requirement, you complete the competencies related to this and it is reconstructed onto your (traditional) transcript as something like 2 courses worth 3 credit hours with names and codes/etc.
CONCLUSION -
- I need to aggregate all of the information so far into a more comprehensive format, instead of it being spread out, and correct for any wrong info.
- I am hopeful of obtaining more information, on the courses that are in their General Ed task system (see #11 above), and on how those courses are possibly grouped together. This is likely critical for the community to evaluate if CBE is going to be helpful at NAU.
If we can get their groupings, it might be possible to do a better plot of a possible plan that involves CBE. Right now it looks like you can meet all or most of their language requirement by CLEP, you can meet their Minor requirement only through an Associates, and you may be able to meet parts or most of their General Ed requirements (I'm talking about in a way that fulfills groupings, as described in #1 above). You will have to complete at least some General Ed requirements and the Major at NAU. Given their cost ($2,500 for 6 months of access), this is not a huge financial burden, especially given that they give you the option to earn a B with a pre-test, and their system functions similarly to ALEKS (of course, they may require papers and such, I'm talking the mechanics).
So far today, I'm left with the following impression -
- This is the best option I've seen if you want a substantial amount of grades on your transcript & you are a person who swears by exam/competency evaluation.
- I'm not entirely sure how useful the CLEP credits may be in meeting General Ed requirements until I get a follow-up email, I suspect that there will be a chunk of CBE that will fit in, but how much is not known yet. My personal opinion, after the conversation, was that it doesn't matter a ton with how their pre-test model is constructed. I think it may only be helpful in terms of very slow students (ie for cost reasons) or for students looking to meet Minor requirements with an Associates (where it may make sense to try to meet as many General Ed requirements as possible).
- There are obvious benefits to the CBE model, there are also obvious potential downsides to a degree that is mostly CBE. This could include being somewhat weak in terms of writing and in upper level coursework, besides the general - what is up with your transcript? - issues. The PL option at NAU has the potential to address any actual or perceived issues in these areas.
- Pre-testing (built-in CBE) and a model similar to ALEKS (alert - may require writing, I'm talking the learning/evaluation model) for a B? At my own pace (finish in a semester or not?) - nifty!
I'll do a follow-up once I get more information, and try to aggregate all the information in one place. It should then be possible to present any CBE or Associates @ COSU -> NAU (or similar) options that may make sense.
Hope this helps some people! Neat program, I'm really leaning towards saying no to TESC and enrolling at NAU.
I think there is a real danger in assuming that NAU's PL program, in regards to coursework & credit hours, works exactly like the Big Three and most other schools. I mean, I have spent the last few weeks reading, in great depth, their website and anything I can find talking about their program in articles & grant proposals, but I did not really grasp exactly what the "deconstructed the courses" thing they were talking about meant until I talked to Rebecca today.
In brief, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In this case, I found a rivet. That's not bad, in fact, I came away thinking it was a net positive. I'm talking about their competency model and how their courses/tasks work. More just below as I summarize what I got answers on.
1. NAU's PL program is competency based. Yes you've read about it, I've read about it, but what is difficult to grasp in just reading about it, is that they have DECONSTRUCTED many of the traditional college courses (English, Sociology, History), and created say (I'm giving a totally made-up example), 8 competency tasks that must be learned/demonstrated before you would meet this requirement. The courses are all integrated, you may be doing a paper based on a topic in Sociology's history for example (completely made-up example).
1a. What this means for people on this forum -
- You can transfer and receive credit for CBE exams (and transfer credit), but in the above (made-up) example, if you only transferred in English and Sociology, you would still have to complete all 8 competency tasks (although they should be easier).
- Since there are no CBE options for the Major or the Minor, this is not a problem there. For the Language requirement, there is a CBE option. This is only a problem with the General Ed requirements.
- You are able to meet individual course requirements, ie - MATH115 is "stand-alone", or maybe the blocks in whole.
SUMMARY - CBE or transfer credits may not remove tasks/requirements in their system for General Ed requirements
2. They have a built-in CBE option. You can pass the pre-test for a B for most competencies (I'm guessing you won't be able to for a handful). You can then challenge for an A. If you fail the pre-test, it will tell you what you need to study in the material - you study that, and you can re-take the test at anytime, rinse & repeat until you pass. It's basically like ALEKS guys.
SUMMARY - Their pre-test/pass system works sorta like ALEKS from what I understand. Ie they have a built-in CBE option for most of the degree (not for the internship for example).
3. ACE Credits & National Credits - It was hinted at in their material, but they are pretty open about Nationally-accredited coursework. They still want to see that it was not some worthless course, but they are not limited to Regional only. As far as ACE credits, at this time, it is, as suspected, Millitary-specific, ie, nothing that we're aware of. May change in the future.
SUMMARY - No ACE (ie Straighterline, ALEKS), Nationally accredited coursework - give it a shot.
4. Transfer Credits - 64 credits from 2 year schools, 90 credits from 4 year schools, 30 credit (opps, they call them units!) residency.
5. Financial Aid - Check back around the end of the year. 529 - not sure, need to check with Financial Aid.
6. How Semesters Work - Unlike WGU, there are no requirement for completing a certain number of courses by the end of the semester - they don't care at all (other than it's your money). For financial aid reasons, you may need to kick it up a notch, they will help you select tasks that will appear on your semester transcript to allow you to meet attendance requirements. You can take time off between semesters, up to 18 months, your tasks will remain frozen, although, I'm guessing this is not a good idea (especially for loan reasons or attending another college).
7. Internship - They can work to place you, but as most students are working adults, this is typically something involving your workplace, as appropriate (you may not be able to do IT stuff at McDonalds for example).
8. New Majors - Currently evaluating, it's a long process.
9. NAU Transcripts - They talk about you receiving two transcripts. One is a competency transcript, with more details, etc - it is hoped that this might better help future employers evaluate what you may have learned and what real skills you have achieved. The other is a traditional transcript. As discussed, they combine the competency tasks into individual courses. I'm not entirely sure how this works with Mastery challenges.
10. Mastery Challenges for an A - Not a ton of info here, it does not sound like it is a cake-walk, as it is intended to reflect academic rigorousness, but they also don't have data yet, as the program has only been live for six weeks. It will be adjusted if appropriate. What I'm also not sure about, is how this will work with constructing your transcript from the competency tasks. Is there a Mastery for each task? Or only for a group of tasks? How do you end up with an A in English for example given the (made-up) example above? Not sure...
11. General Ed Courses - There is a breakdown (in other posts I've made and on their site) of the general ed requirements and how they break down into categories. Due to the nature of how they deconstruct the competencies required, there is a SET (ie you cannot pick courses to meet requirements within their task system) list of courses that will appear on your transcript (discussed in #9 above). This isn't on their website, I'll do a follow-up when I receive this list. What I'm trying to say is that you can't pick from 5 courses in order to meet their CU (Cultural Understanding) requirement, you complete the competencies related to this and it is reconstructed onto your (traditional) transcript as something like 2 courses worth 3 credit hours with names and codes/etc.
CONCLUSION -
- I need to aggregate all of the information so far into a more comprehensive format, instead of it being spread out, and correct for any wrong info.
- I am hopeful of obtaining more information, on the courses that are in their General Ed task system (see #11 above), and on how those courses are possibly grouped together. This is likely critical for the community to evaluate if CBE is going to be helpful at NAU.
If we can get their groupings, it might be possible to do a better plot of a possible plan that involves CBE. Right now it looks like you can meet all or most of their language requirement by CLEP, you can meet their Minor requirement only through an Associates, and you may be able to meet parts or most of their General Ed requirements (I'm talking about in a way that fulfills groupings, as described in #1 above). You will have to complete at least some General Ed requirements and the Major at NAU. Given their cost ($2,500 for 6 months of access), this is not a huge financial burden, especially given that they give you the option to earn a B with a pre-test, and their system functions similarly to ALEKS (of course, they may require papers and such, I'm talking the mechanics).
So far today, I'm left with the following impression -
- This is the best option I've seen if you want a substantial amount of grades on your transcript & you are a person who swears by exam/competency evaluation.
- I'm not entirely sure how useful the CLEP credits may be in meeting General Ed requirements until I get a follow-up email, I suspect that there will be a chunk of CBE that will fit in, but how much is not known yet. My personal opinion, after the conversation, was that it doesn't matter a ton with how their pre-test model is constructed. I think it may only be helpful in terms of very slow students (ie for cost reasons) or for students looking to meet Minor requirements with an Associates (where it may make sense to try to meet as many General Ed requirements as possible).
- There are obvious benefits to the CBE model, there are also obvious potential downsides to a degree that is mostly CBE. This could include being somewhat weak in terms of writing and in upper level coursework, besides the general - what is up with your transcript? - issues. The PL option at NAU has the potential to address any actual or perceived issues in these areas.
- Pre-testing (built-in CBE) and a model similar to ALEKS (alert - may require writing, I'm talking the learning/evaluation model) for a B? At my own pace (finish in a semester or not?) - nifty!
I'll do a follow-up once I get more information, and try to aggregate all the information in one place. It should then be possible to present any CBE or Associates @ COSU -> NAU (or similar) options that may make sense.
Hope this helps some people! Neat program, I'm really leaning towards saying no to TESC and enrolling at NAU.
![[-]](https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/images/collapse.png)