Universal Basic Income

[dfrecore]

I've met guys with records who actually go out of their way to get back in prison because it's free food and shelter.

I actually went out of my way to help one of these fellows more recently (in Dallas) just to find out he didn't care.

I got him a job working in retail at $9/hour. Crappy job, but I called in a favor with a manager friend who ignored the felony. Then, I gave him access to an insulated shed with electricity, a window AC + heat unit, and a clean bed, plus external access to a full bathroom with a small closet housing his wardrobe (half of which we bought for him) at all hours. All that plus meals, the only stipulation was that he was required to work his job 20-30 hours a week.

He had no bills, no overhead, no need to turn to crime. He wasn't going to move forward quickly, but he had a comfortable life with $8500 in surplus (working 20 hours a week for a year). Took him a month to get arrested for the same thing he did the first time. His excuse, when I went to consider bailing him out, was, "I don't like working all these hours, it's hard."

Obviously, one bad egg does not define the bunch, but I've had ex-cons who I am actively helping do monumentally stupid things just to go back to prison.

This does not mean that they like the welfare, as much as they can't function in the real world. For some people, it IS hard. Really hard. If you've never lived in a house where your parents got up and went to work every day, and that isn't the norm for you, it's harder than average. I saw my dad (a lineman for the phone company) go out in the freezing cold, rain, 115 degree heat - every work day of my life. He never complained. He was also the last guy on the list for call-outs (after-hours calls to come and work in an emergency), and he would go because he was the last on the list, which meant they had called every other guy on that list first. And if we wanted/needed extra money for something, he would take more overtime hours. And my mom was always so appreciative of him, and would bring him food on callouts (we would come too), just so he could take a 10-minute break and see his kids if he hadn't seen us all day. She always talked about what a hard worker he was, and how all that he did provided all of the nice things that we had. So do I know the value of hard work? You bet! Do I appreciate my husband working hard so that I can stay home with our kids? Absolutely. Do I man-bash like some of the women I know, who complain about their husbands and men in general. HELL NO!

I have a friend who's wife is divorcing him, because he works too much!!! They have 4 kids and he is an awesome dad, coaches them all in soccer, and is a hard worker, but she doesn't value hard work. She lived with a single mom, and 3 sisters, and was on welfare. You would think, of all people, that she would appreciate a man who works hard to provide for their family, but she does NOT! Totally screwing over their kids, but she just doesn't care.

So, a lot of life, unfortunately, depends on how you were raised, and what you value. I thank my lucky stars for my great parents, and hope that my kids feel the same later on as adults. So many people do not get a great start in life, and it is very sad.

[Thorne]

So, a lot of life, unfortunately, depends on how you were raised, and what you value...So many people do not get a great start in life, and it is very sad.

Sure, how you were raised affects you today. I don't see it as an excuse because I can't comprehend it.
To illustrate a bit, I was excessively abused (physically and psychologically) as a child, yet I have no emotional or intellectual problems according to my psychologist (oxymoronic, but I went to a psychologist to have an IQ test + some personality tests done, I'm perfectly normal). My parents have no concept of how to handle financial matters, and I am the antithesis of their bad habits - being overly frugal. My father is incredibly lazy and my mother, while hardworking for a time, is complacent and wants to be lazy (her admission), but I have become so focused on my long-term goals that I haven't taken more than one consecutive day off of work in three years.

It's not that I never had emotional issues or scarring, or that I haven't ever desired to buy the shiniest and newest toys, or that I wasn't inherently lazy until I hit my later teenage years. It's that I realized the self-destructive nature of those issues and became determined to move past them.
There's a lot more going on, and more that I am working on, but those are the big three.

For that reason, I have almost no empathy toward people like that, not even my own father. If I can move past it, that means you can too, it just comes down to resolve. That doesn't mean working hard will solve financial problems, or that you can overcome the mental scarring from being sexually abused or physically beat by family members entirely, but that you can't use your problems as a crutch your whole life because, "It's hard."

[sarg123]

This is exactly the problem that I see with all these programs - that once you're on them, it just becomes too hard to get off. The way to get people out of poverty is NOT to throw more and more programs/money at them - that just reinforces the cycle of poverty, unfortunately. The way to get out of poverty is to get people on jobs. Realistically, not everyone who works will end up doing better - but you have to admit, that if you're actually working, there's a chance. If you stay on programs, there's no chance.

On a personal level, I have to say that there was one point in my life that I was contemplating joining the "gang". I watched how people who were on all the programs got Section 8, food stamps, Heap, and medicaid (or whatever it's called now). We were paying for all those things ourselves, including medical insurance. Adding up all this money, plus figuring out how much we paid in payroll taxes, transportation and other job related costs, I figured out that if my husband would take an "easier" job, with less hours (and would be closer so that transportation would be cheaper) we would actually come out ahead, money-wise. I really wanted to do it, but my husband said nothing doing. He said that he sees that people who start on programs just never get off, and he doesn't want that life.

So, my husband works 50 hours a week, and here I am, looking to get my degree so I can also work long hours Sometimes I really wonder if we made the right decision...

[Collegelady2]

This is exactly the problem that I see with all these programs - that once you're on them, it just becomes too hard to get off. The way to get people out of poverty is NOT to throw more and more programs/money at them - that just reinforces the cycle of poverty, unfortunately. The way to get out of poverty is to get people on jobs. Realistically, not everyone who works will end up doing better - but you have to admit, that if you're actually working, there's a chance. If you stay on programs, there's no chance.

On a personal level, I have to say that there was one point in my life that I was contemplating joining the "gang". I watched how people who were on all the programs got Section 8, food stamps, Heap, and medicaid (or whatever it's called now). We were paying for all those things ourselves, including medical insurance. Adding up all this money, plus figuring out how much we paid in payroll taxes, transportation and other job related costs, I figured out that if my husband would take an "easier" job, with less hours (and would be closer so that transportation would be cheaper) we would actually come out ahead, money-wise. I really wanted to do it, but my husband said nothing doing. He said that he sees that people who start on programs just never get off, and he doesn't want that life.

So, my husband works 50 hours a week, and here I am, looking to get my degree so I can also work long hours Sometimes I really wonder if we made the right decision...

Can't really call it poverty in my opinion because most these people that are taking advantage of these programs are living quite well.

[sanantone]

I saw multiple inmates show back up in the yard after a month or 3 of being a free man. It's not that far fetched to say free room and board. If it were so awful, they would stay out. Heard lots of life stories and sob stories from our orderlies and other inmates....the'yre lying most of the time, check their file.

I spent 70 to 80 hours a week with those idiots, and I have less empathy now for inmates than I had before I started. Screw em, they have more rights than COs in our system.

I worked as a corrections officer and a substance abuse counselor to inmates. As a corrections officer, you don't know as much as you think you do. Counselors actually had more access to an inmate's history than a run-of-the-mill corrections officer. I had information on my clients that none of the officers were privy to because of HIPAA. Once you really get to talk to them, you start to understand why they keep messing up. Most inmates need some form of counseling or rehabilitation program, but most will never receive it in prison because states are dumb enough to waste billions on locking people up and releasing them with the same problems just so that they can come back.

I knew one client who owed a lot in back child support due to his previous incarceration and hardly had any money left in his check from his $10 an hour job. When his disabled mother was about to be evicted and he had no money to help her, he committed fraud to get the money. The story with his mother was confirmed. Another client started selling drugs again because no one would hire him. Thankfully, our program helped him get his GED so that, he could not only qualify for more jobs, but he could also qualify for training programs that require a high school diploma or GED.

Fortunately, at the jail where I was a corrections officer, the experienced officers and supervisors taught everyone to treat the inmates humanely because any of us could end up where they are. What they said is true. Some people simply make mistakes. Several of our deputies became alcoholics, and some of them were arrested for DWIs.

Additionally, you'll come across a disproportionate number of inmates who have anti-social personality disorders (similar to a sociopath, but that's not a clinical term). They aren't the majority, but there is a high number of them. There's really not much help for them. There are also a lot of anti-social corrections officers who are no better than the inmates they oversee. They can't feel empathy, and they get enjoyment from hurting others. Some people take the job to have control over others because they are losers in real life.

Then, you have the corrections officers who help facilitate crimes. There are always corrections officers sleeping with inmates; it's very common. It doesn't even help to separate the sexes. There are male corrections officers sleeping with male inmates and female corrections officers sleeping with female inmates. A lot of the drugs that are smuggled into prisons get there with the help of corrections officers. Most of the cell phone smuggling is done by corrections officers. There is a reason why most jails and prisons will not allow anyone, including employees, to take a cell phone inside. Many corrections officers are also directly or indirectly affiliated with gangs, but background investigations miss this. I saw corrections officers with gang tattoos that should have been easily identified by the supervisors, but corrections doesn't exactly attract the brightest people.

This is exactly the problem that I see with all these programs - that once you're on them, it just becomes too hard to get off. The way to get people out of poverty is NOT to throw more and more programs/money at them - that just reinforces the cycle of poverty, unfortunately. The way to get out of poverty is to get people on jobs. Realistically, not everyone who works will end up doing better - but you have to admit, that if you're actually working, there's a chance. If you stay on programs, there's no chance.

On a personal level, I have to say that there was one point in my life that I was contemplating joining the "gang". I watched how people who were on all the programs got Section 8, food stamps, Heap, and medicaid (or whatever it's called now). We were paying for all those things ourselves, including medical insurance. Adding up all this money, plus figuring out how much we paid in payroll taxes, transportation and other job related costs, I figured out that if my husband would take an "easier" job, with less hours (and would be closer so that transportation would be cheaper) we would actually come out ahead, money-wise. I really wanted to do it, but my husband said nothing doing. He said that he sees that people who start on programs just never get off, and he doesn't want that life.

So, my husband works 50 hours a week, and here I am, looking to get my degree so I can also work long hours Sometimes I really wonder if we made the right decision...

The solution is to not drastically reduce benefits when people get a minimum wage job. The solution is definitely not to cut spending on retraining for the unemployed, which is what the government is currently considering.

Sure, how you were raised affects you today. I don't see it as an excuse because I can't comprehend it.
To illustrate a bit, I was excessively abused (physically and psychologically) as a child, yet I have no emotional or intellectual problems according to my psychologist (oxymoronic, but I went to a psychologist to have an IQ test + some personality tests done, I'm perfectly normal). My parents have no concept of how to handle financial matters, and I am the antithesis of their bad habits - being overly frugal. My father is incredibly lazy and my mother, while hardworking for a time, is complacent and wants to be lazy (her admission), but I have become so focused on my long-term goals that I haven't taken more than one consecutive day off of work in three years.

It's not that I never had emotional issues or scarring, or that I haven't ever desired to buy the shiniest and newest toys, or that I wasn't inherently lazy until I hit my later teenage years. It's that I realized the self-destructive nature of those issues and became determined to move past them.
There's a lot more going on, and more that I am working on, but those are the big three.

For that reason, I have almost no empathy toward people like that, not even my own father. If I can move past it, that means you can too, it just comes down to resolve. That doesn't mean working hard will solve financial problems, or that you can overcome the mental scarring from being sexually abused or physically beat by family members entirely, but that you can't use your problems as a crutch your whole life because, "It's hard."

Do you know what I learned to do? I learned not to compare everyone's resilience and abilities to my own. While some people can come out of child abuse mostly fine, many others can't. I had an abusive, dysfunctional childhood and manage to pass psychological testing for law enforcement positions. I don't have any mental health problems even though I have family members with mental health problems giving me a genetic predisposition, but not everyone is like me. I'm good at self-teaching and can manage to pass most tests with minimal study; my IQ is above average. I am not the average person. While I could have done well in a school with poor teachers, many students can't. I know I can only go so far when comparing myself to other people in similar situations.

Prisons and jails house more mentally ill people than behavioral hospitals. At least a quarter of inmates have mental health problems. Some of them have been diagnosed, but haven't been on their medications or in therapy. Some of them are yet to be diagnosed. Even among the general population, there are access issues to mental health treatment. It's expensive, and the government wants to take away the requirement for insurance companies to cover mental health and substance abuse treatment. Even if you can find a way to afford treatment, there are severe shortages of mental health professionals nationwide. In Texas, over 72% of the counties have no psychiatrist. Texas used to be one of the worst states for mental health spending and finally came to the realization that they needed to do something about the lack of access.

Can't really call it poverty in my opinion because most these people that are taking advantage of these programs are living quite well.

Then, you don't know a lot of people on welfare.

[Exfactor]

People are more eager to attack the poor who exploit the system than the rich who expolit the system. No-one I ever met in my life ever wanted to accept governmental assistance willingly; so this ideal that people are living comfortably and don't want to get off the system is the most hilarious thing I've ever read.

[icampy]

You haven't spent a lot of time surrounded by poor folks , then. It's not everyone on welfare, but a huge chunk of them are fine and dandy with it.


And you're right sanantone, I ran around with case workers (one was my best friend there) and I learned a LOT about the inmates from them. Whether it was stuff they told me, or inmates I would ask about. Found out one "good guy" orderly that all the female officers liked was a chomo (He told everyone he committed bank fraud). They're also batsh** crazy. Like, scary crazy. A big I'm chunk of them. I saw some insane stuff as a SHU officer from both the same and insane inmates. Though all my physical interactions were with "sane" inmates that wanted to appear tough . Crazy ones mostly kept to theirself and assaulted other inmates, not staff.

And dirty officers is a big deal. I personally saw females flirting with inmates, a few got caught sleeping with inmates, even more caught taking stuff to inmates, there were fewer good than bad female COs, unfortunately. I am wholeheartedly against female officers in all male prisons, and think male officers should be extremely scrutinized in all female prisons, too. I had to intervene in more issues involving female staff than anything else. It was insane how many issues women staff caused. For about 8 months, I worked full time in the SHU. We would have almost been empty if we got rid of every inmate in there involving a female officer. Like, we stayed anywhere from 30 to 80 inmates in the SHU, maybe we had 5 to 15 in there at a time that wasn't in there from an issue with female staff. It was insane how much work was created and how many issues were created. An all male staff is incredibly boring, and females see things and have social skills that males just dont have, but all male prisons need all male officers. And I hate it because 2 of the officers I trusted most were females, and were the best officers in the whole prison...but I still stand by what I say. And when over 50% of them flirt with inmates....come on. It was sickening, I couldn't believe how rampant it was in my first week there. All the things they told us in training about dirty officers, and recognizing them, I saw in my first week.

I also saw several male officers that were homies with inmates, and a couple got caught bringing stuff to them. That definitely happens too, far too often.

[Exfactor]

You haven't spent a lot of time surrounded by poor folks , then. It's not everyone on welfare, but a huge chunk of them are fine and dandy with it.

Oh please, I grew up in the inner city. No one I know who have ever accepted governmental assistance have ever been happy with receiving such. Because even with receiving such they still live in poverty. This ideal that people would prefer to be poor, live in sub-standard housing, receive a poor education, while getting a small handout in food assistance is the most ludicrous thing ever, and really shows how a specific demographic is out of touch of what really goes on with the poor. Yet, what is even more funny is this ideology that poor people don't work; most of these people work, yet still don't make enough to "survive."

Poor people love being poor and don't want to better themselves.



You all are comedians.

[icampy]

Oh, and part of my opinion on no female officers in a male prison is because of the male inmates, not solely the officers. Guys act differently around women, obviously they will show off and flirt, which causes issues even with a good female officer. As in ,escorting an inmate that is acting fine, a female officer shows up and he starts bucking and causes a use of force. It's just all around bad news, and it's based on the setting (all being locked in cages together), and I don't think any of this would apply to female police officers, state troopers, etc. Prisons are just a special set of circumstances .

[icampy]

And whatever you say, I have experienced the opposite. Not "oh I love being poor" (that is not a thing and no one said it is), but "I love not working or having an easy part time job, because I can get all this for free". I don't care enough to argue with it, I now live in a small west Texas town that is rural, yet votes democrat due to having over 50% of the population on welfare. So I've seen different sides, and different demographics and cultures. I grew up in North Alabama, where I learned the hard truth about welfare.


The system is majorly abused, and thats all there is to it. Thats both of our paychecks getting cut due to the abusers. Lots of people need welfare. But the people who are fine staying on it or don't need it are much much greater in number. I'm just tired of seeing a third if my paycheck disappear (And I haven't worked a lowly 40 hour week in 15 years, I forget how easy working 8 hours was) and seeing poor people on welfare driving escapades and king ranch f350s, then getting their food for free .


Anyways, I gotta bow out. If you enjoy giving your money (earned) to people that do nothing to earn it, I can't help you . If you think the government is efficient and knows best, and that our poor are better off now than the poor of 20 years ago, I can't help you. And there are plenty of charities you can give to if you feel that poor people don't get enough of your money.