More crazy nutty student debt...

[rebel100]

not all students seek to attend "the local community college."

I feel what you're saying. There can be a lot of external and internal pressure to choose something other than the college down the street. I think that's fine, provided you have a way to pay for it. Simply desiring "to find yourself" or "to be away from home" is no excuse to take on crippling slavery level debt. This is reinforced when we look at the number of kids who bet on college, take on debt, then leave without completing the degree or graduate and fail to find gainful employment. "Not seeking to attend" can't be allowed as the deciding factor when your gambling with an unclear future and thousands and thousands of dollars.

On the other board there is an educated guy seeking advice on the other forum who appears to be well on the way to financial handicap due to medical conditions Opinions requested This is the sort of thing that should spring to mind when one considers college at all. Yes, of course, we should also consider the positive possibilities (walking the stage in front of the family, hanging the degree on the wall, shaking your new bosses hand as he welcomes you aboard your new dream job). But for every success there is sure to be a failure (or more). I agree with Passit1, you have to plan and consider contingencies, a college education should never be decided on pure emotion.

[dfrecore]

All students do not attend community colleges, which causes your hypothesis to discriminate against students who do not attend such institutions of higher learning. Do you come from "poverty" or a family of non-college graduates? Because trying to tell someone who comes from that sort of situation that "poverty" does not influence their financial, career, and educational choices is hysterical.

Discrimination is "prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex." Please show me how anything even remotely close to that came up in my writings.

The fact that I said the word "poverty" has real meaning when talking about college pell grants is not some "hypothesis" you're talking about (which you made up). Those are real numbers I got from government websites.

My "hypothesis" was that going into debt to go to college was a choice. Just because someone doesn't "seek to go to community college" does not make me wrong. If you CAN go to a less expensive school for 2 or more years to make sure that you don't take on debt, and CHOOSE not to do that, that is as I said "a choice" and not the reality of whether or not you COULD afford to go to college without debt.

I also never said that poverty does not influence anything. I was talking about the federal limits in pell grants versus federal poverty limits.

And yes, I do come from a family of non-college graduates. Almost no one on either side of my family graduated from college. Some didn't even graduate from high school, and my grandfather quit school in the 4th grade to help on the farm after his dad died. No, I don't come from poverty, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the struggle that some people have.

But being poor does not give you a free pass on math. The math still has to work, and reality still comes into play.

[bluebooger]

When you say the word "poverty", I take that to mean the Federal poverty limit. 95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families make less than $50k. That is WELL above poverty. That's above the poverty level for a family of EIGHT. If you're talking a mom and 1 kid, she would have to make less than $15k to qualify as poverty-level, and that would certainly get a pell grant for the full amount.

...

Of course, this assumes that people will do what they can to avoid student loan debt. If they choose not to do those types of things to avoid debt, then please don't say it's because of "poverty" because most likely, it's not. It's because of choices made.

I don't understand your statement at all

I'll capitalize they key word for me
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families make LESS than $50k. That is well above poverty."

yes, 50k is well above the poverty level
but it does not say
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families MAKE $50k."
it says
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families MAKE LESS than $50k."

so that would include "a mom and 1 kid, making less than $15k"

[sanantone]

I qualified for a full grant award as an independent student while making around $23,000 a year. I believe the poverty line was around $13,000 at the time. If I had decided to attend one of the local, public universities, I probably would have come out with less than $15,000 in loans. Having over $100k in loans for an undergrad degree is rare for a reason.

[dfrecore]

I don't understand your statement at all

I'll capitalize they key word for me
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families make LESS than $50k. That is well above poverty."

yes, 50k is well above the poverty level
but it does not say
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families MAKE $50k."
it says
"95.5% of Pell grants are given to students whose families MAKE LESS than $50k."

so that would include "a mom and 1 kid, making less than $15k"

I was trying to say that someone making the federal poverty level ($15k for a single mom with a kid) would certainly qualify for a pell grant.

My point was that most (maybe all) of those considered poverty level will get the full pell grant. So poverty cannot be the reason people come out with lots of student loan debt. Choice is the reason people do, if they choose to go to a more expensive school.

[Exfactor]

I qualified for a full grant award as an independent student while making around $23,000 a year. I believe the poverty line was around $13,000 at the time. If I had decided to attend one of the local, public universities, I probably would have come out with less than $15,000 in loans. Having over $100k in loans for an undergrad degree is rare for a reason.

You stated in another thread that you were African American; so go tell that to the countless Morehouse, Spelman, Howard, and Hampton students who are 30-50k in student loan debt, while their parents are 30-50k in debt with student plus loans. Everyone does not attend local or public universities, as such schools do not cater to all student populations.

I was trying to say that someone making the federal poverty level ($15k for a single mom with a kid) would certainly qualify for a pell grant.

My point was that most (maybe all) of those considered poverty level will get the full pell grant. So poverty cannot be the reason people come out with lots of student loan debt. Choice is the reason people do, if they choose to go to a more expensive school.

Yet, the Pell Grant still does not cover all the expenses of tuition at many institutions, which is a factor that you continuously ignore. You explain to a kid who is the only one to graduate from high school in their family to attend a community college or attend a 4 year college/university, and wait for their answer.

I feel what you're saying. There can be a lot of external and internal pressure to choose something other than the college down the street. I think that's fine, provided you have a way to pay for it. Simply desiring "to find yourself" or "to be away from home" is no excuse to take on crippling slavery level debt. This is reinforced when we look at the number of kids who bet on college, take on debt, then leave without completing the degree or graduate and fail to find gainful employment. "Not seeking to attend" can't be allowed as the deciding factor when your gambling with an unclear future and thousands and thousands of dollars.

The woman in the article continued making strides up the degree ladder, while never paying for the loans she continued to take out. When looking at most of the articles I see about students in 100k debt, most articles default back to the financial crisis. Students being on scholarships in their final years, scared to transfer due to being so far along. Scholarship funds drying up, parents struggling to pay for their education due to the financial crisis ect. I attended a school during that time; worked in the financial aid office at the same time, and I seen no student take out loans for the sake of taking out loans. I seen students taking out loans due to their parents loosing jobs, or the scholarship they were promised drying up, all while the institution is increasing prices.

[sanantone]

You stated in another thread that you were African American; so go tell that to the countless Morehouse, Spelman, Howard, and Hampton students who are 30-50k in student loan debt, while their parents are 30-50k in debt with student plus loans. Everyone does not attend local or public universities, as such schools do not cater to all student populations.

Not everyone is going to attend Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, and Hampton. In general, African American students do not have better outcomes when attending HBCUs. However, if someone really wants to attend an HBCU, then there are public ones that are a lot cheaper than the private ones. You also have to take into consideration that the overwhelming majority of African American, college students do not attend HBCUs. If you're going to spend a lot at a private college/university, then it should have a good ROI. What is the point in spending more if you're not going to be making more? Those colleges should come with salaries that match the average debt load of their students. Economically disadvantaged parents aren't even likely to qualify for that much in loans. As someone who came from a home that was well under the poverty line, I would have not been able to afford to attend a private HBCU without scholarships. I could not possibly get that much in loans. From what I've heard (I'd have to check on it), most of the students at these private HBCUs are middle and upper class.

Among Black students, the percentage enrolled at HBCUs has fallen over time, from 18 percent in 1976 to 9 percent in 2011.

Fast Facts

[dfrecore]

Exfactor, I'm not sure at this time what your point is on this? Are you saying that when students don't go to a local cc or 4-year state college, that it's not a choice they're making? Because that's my ENTIRE point in this conversation. Everyone is making choices, and going to a college you cannot afford (meaning one you can't pay for by getting scholarships, pell grants, or working to pay cash for) is not always a great idea.

I got offered a partial scholarship to go to Stanford, and my parents said "NO, we can't afford that." That was it. There was no discussing loans or anything of the sort. I would have loved to go, because it sounded cool, but I didn't. We made the choice to go somewhere that was affordable (state university 2 hours away where I had family I could stay with), and I had no loans. I got scholarships, my parents paid a little, and I worked at the school and at an outside job. And if I didn't get a scholarship at the school I did, I would have lived at home while going to the local state university, until I could afford to get my own apartment.

I can appreciate people WANTING to go to a specific college, or away to college. I really can. But that does not mean that it's the best choice for them to do so. If it will leave them many thousands of dollars in debt, then it may not be a good idea.

My kids already know that their options to go to college are: get a full-ride scholarship to a college they'd like to go to; or go to the local cc while living at home for 2 years, then transfer to a local state university to finish their bachelors. That's it. Because I refuse to be a party to them going into debt for school. That's a personal choice our family is making, as we will have 2 kids in college at the same time (they're 1 year apart in grade). While going to some private school with loans might sound like a good plan to an 18-year old, it is NOT what I'm willing to do for them and to them.

Again, everything we are talking about here is CHOICES. People get to make them for themselves, but that doesn't always mean they're good ones, or that there won't be consequences for them.

[Exfactor]

Not everyone is going to attend Howard, Spelman, Morehouse, and Hampton. In general, African American students do not have better outcomes when attending HBCUs.

This actually isn't true. When I was at Morehouse the people I knew who were graduating were on their way to Harvard, Yale, Columbia or just accepted jobs at Google (best friend), Microsoft ect. While the people I knew who went to Florida, Florida State, Texas A&M, Texas Tech; were all struggling trying to figure out what they were going to do with their lives. If they weren't at those schools on the basis of athletics.

HBCUs Produce the Most Black Alums Who Receive Doctorates in Science and Engineering
TECH-Levers: HBCUs Produce the Most Black Alums Who Receive Doctorates in Science and Engineering

Xavier University (Top feeder school for Black Medical Students)
https://www.jbhe.com/2013/03/the-top-fee...-students/

NIH data also shows that the nation's top 10 producers of undergraduates who go on to earn doctorates in science and engineering are from HBCUs.

For HBCUs, the Proof Is in the Productivity*|*Jarrett L. Carter

Just from my experience; the chances of me coming across an African American JD, MD, Ph.D, DVM from an HBCU increases greatly over one who attended a PWI.

However, if someone really wants to attend an HBCU, then there are public ones that are a lot cheaper than the private ones. You also have to take into consideration that the overwhelming majority of African American, college students do not attend HBCUs. If you're going to spend a lot at a private college/university, then it should have a good ROI. What is the point in spending more if you're not going to be making more? Those colleges should come with salaries that match the average debt load of their students. Economically disadvantaged parents aren't even likely to qualify for that much in loans. As someone who came from a home that was well under the poverty line, I would have not been able to afford to attend a private HBCU without scholarships. I could not possibly get that much in loans. From what I've heard (I'd have to check on it), most of the students at these private HBCUs are middle and upper class.
Fast Facts

HBCU's generally nurture their student populations in ways of which they get left behind at PWI's. Just from my experience, I have encountered more successful African American grads from HBUC's than PWI's. When I attended Morehouse, my dorm hall had the kid who father was a millionaire, two doors down, and one door down was the kind who came from a single family home; it was really a mixture of economic statuses. But the point it, a great deal were on academic scholarships that made their attendance affordable to that of public institutions;however, when the financial crisis occurred a great deal of these students had scholarships that dried up, were loans became their only option; especially for a junior or senior.

[davewill]

... however, when the financial crisis occurred a great deal of these students had scholarships that dried up, were loans became their only option; especially for a junior or senior.

It was NOT their only option. They could have transferred. Taking the loans may have been a good option, if it didn't put them too far into debt, but it was definitely not their only option.