The Duggars and CollegePlus

[cookderosa]

I have over 1400 posts on this forum. That's what I'm doing for free. I thought that would be obvious. I also participate in other education forums that are read by hundreds of people on top of helping people with their degree plans in direct messages. I've spent countless hours putting together TESC degree plans for everyone to read on this forum and the Degree Forum Wiki in addition to researching free and low cost options for obtaining credit even though I've already completed my undergraduate degrees. I've answered way more questions on this forum than I've asked FOR FREE!

I think this is a good discussion, because it brings in the ethics of proprietary information vs free information, and I know I personally thought long and hard about the ethics of selling what I know. (my book royalty is about $3 per copy. You can do the math for how long it would take ME to earn $3000)

Anyway, Sanatone is right on an important point. I also think >1000 posts validates a person's altruistic motivation. Anyone sticking around that long and posting that often isn't only answering questions, they are contributing. I earned my degree in 2008 from TESC, and Brad Voeller's book was the spark- I tell everyone that (I know personally of 3-4 people who bought his book on my recommendation!) I think you should give credit where credit is due. I've also said here and in my book that I owe my degree to this forum, and I'm not exaggerating, I'm being absolutely serious. I don't know how many times I've replied vs asked a question, but there are plenty of good people here with a ratio of giving > taking. In my book, the first thing I do is direct people here.

In my view, which is just that- mine, I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here, but... I think the distinction is when you give someone tools vs when you make them believe you are the provider of access. I think that this forum, Dr. Bear's book, my book, etc., are good because they give a motivated person the tools and enough direction to get going on the right path. There is no financial incentive behind WHICH path THEY choose, rather the cost is simply in providing the tool (flash cards/web site for IC, printing and shipping costs for a book, etc). CP has added "courses" to their product list, just sayin...

The only issue I have with CP is that they give me the impression that they hold a secret, and by paying $$$$$ you'll get access that other people don't have. I don't like that motive. I like that they are a Christian company, I just don't like that they exploit it to prey on parent's insecurities. It implies that something in the way that THEY usher you through the Sociology CLEP is "more" inline with your doctrine than than the "other" ways out there.... anyway, not intended to be a rant, sorry about that! We get lots of CP people here, I'm wondering if CP is referring or if they are just being resourceful?

[FallingWaters]

I look at it this way. There are countless businesses out there who are doing what we could do ourselves for free. You go to a restaurant, and pay for the privilege of not cooking. You hire a housekeeper once a month and pay for the privilege of someone else cleaning your toilets. You go to the barber's and hire someone to do what you could do yourself with a pair of clippers. That's the beauty of America!! Nowhere is CP claiming to hold a secret, or do something you cannot do. They're giving you the opportunity to decide that your time is worth more than your money.

Honestly, between pursuing this process both for myself (I've completed 66 credits in the last 16 months due overwhelmingly to this forum) and for my daughter (taking her first CLEP in a few weeks), I cannot begin to count the hours I've spent learning about TESC, CLEPs, distance learning, etc etc. If I had the money, YES I would pay someone to do it for me! In a heartbeat! Not to mention if I had 18 kids to figure this out for, YES I would pay someone to do it for me!

We live in a capitalist society. Thank God and then go vent some frustration at some of the other craziness in this world. CP doesn't deserve that.

[Westerner]

That still doesn't make their "services" worth $3k, especially when some of their members have to come here for free advice.

Some CP students start to rely more on this forum as they get into their UL work, which this forum has more and better feedback on than what CP has.

Another thing is that CP doesn't just help with prepping for tests. They have a Life Purpose Planning segment in which students take time to consider what they want to do with their lives, and then decide their college plan, instead of rushing in and wasting time and money on something that doesn't fulfill God's plan for them. As they are a Christian company, lots of prayer and Bible reading is encouraged. I know that this part helped me a lot in my college decisions and I'm really glad I did it. So CP's not just about telling you how to take your tests. It's not just giving info you can find here for free. It's doing a valuable service to the Christian community.

I think that if you want this Forum to be better known, work to raise awareness, but don't tear down others who are also doing a service.

[sanantone]

I think this is a good discussion, because it brings in the ethics of proprietary information vs free information, and I know I personally thought long and hard about the ethics of selling what I know. (my book royalty is about $3 per copy. You can do the math for how long it would take ME to earn $3000)

Anyway, Sanatone is right on an important point. I also think >1000 posts validates a person's altruistic motivation. Anyone sticking around that long and posting that often isn't only answering questions, they are contributing. I earned my degree in 2008 from TESC, and Brad Voeller's book was the spark- I tell everyone that (I know personally of 3-4 people who bought his book on my recommendation!) I think you should give credit where credit is due. I've also said here and in my book that I owe my degree to this forum, and I'm not exaggerating, I'm being absolutely serious. I don't know how many times I've replied vs asked a question, but there are plenty of good people here with a ratio of giving > taking. In my book, the first thing I do is direct people here.

In my view, which is just that- mine, I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here, but... I think the distinction is when you give someone tools vs when you make them believe you are the provider of access. I think that this forum, Dr. Bear's book, my book, etc., are good because they give a motivated person the tools and enough direction to get going on the right path. There is no financial incentive behind WHICH path THEY choose, rather the cost is simply in providing the tool (flash cards/web site for IC, printing and shipping costs for a book, etc). CP has added "courses" to their product list, just sayin...

The only issue I have with CP is that they give me the impression that they hold a secret, and by paying $$$$$ you'll get access that other people don't have. I don't like that motive. I like that they are a Christian company, I just don't like that they exploit it to prey on parent's insecurities. It implies that something in the way that THEY usher you through the Sociology CLEP is "more" inline with your doctrine than than the "other" ways out there.... anyway, not intended to be a rant, sorry about that! We get lots of CP people here, I'm wondering if CP is referring or if they are just being resourceful?

I have no problems with books. For less than $30, someone can get most of the basic information they need from the book. Once they are exposed to certain forums and colleges in that book, they can get more advice on that forum or from advisors at the college. I also learned a lot from reading old threads here and that's why I've stuck around so long after completing my degree. I want people to continue to receive the valuable information I received.

I look at it this way. There are countless businesses out there who are doing what we could do ourselves for free. You go to a restaurant, and pay for the privilege of not cooking. You hire a housekeeper once a month and pay for the privilege of someone else cleaning your toilets. You go to the barber's and hire someone to do what you could do yourself with a pair of clippers. That's the beauty of America!! Nowhere is CP claiming to hold a secret, or do something you cannot do. They're giving you the opportunity to decide that your time is worth more than your money.

Honestly, between pursuing this process both for myself (I've completed 66 credits in the last 16 months due overwhelmingly to this forum) and for my daughter (taking her first CLEP in a few weeks), I cannot begin to count the hours I've spent learning about TESC, CLEPs, distance learning, etc etc. If I had the money, YES I would pay someone to do it for me! In a heartbeat! Not to mention if I had 18 kids to figure this out for, YES I would pay someone to do it for me!

We live in a capitalist society. Thank God and then go vent some frustration at some of the other craziness in this world. CP doesn't deserve that.

I don't have a housekeeper and I don't spend $3,000 a year at restaurants. If I did, however, $3,000 worth of food would be worth more than the services provided by CP. I recognize that the Duggars are probably wealthy by this point, but it would not be smart for the average person to spend $3,000 per child if they had a lot of children. Once you go through the process once, it's easy to do it again for the other children. It doesn't take long to look up which tests the next child needs to take even though they should be making some decisions on their own and getting some information passed down to them from their adult siblings.

Some CP students start to rely more on this forum as they get into their UL work, which this forum has more and better feedback on than what CP has.

Another thing is that CP doesn't just help with prepping for tests. They have a Life Purpose Planning segment in which students take time to consider what they want to do with their lives, and then decide their college plan, instead of rushing in and wasting time and money on something that doesn't fulfill God's plan for them. As they are a Christian company, lots of prayer and Bible reading is encouraged. I know that this part helped me a lot in my college decisions and I'm really glad I did it. So CP's not just about telling you how to take your tests. It's not just giving info you can find here for free. It's doing a valuable service to the Christian community.

I think that if you want this Forum to be better known, work to raise awareness, but don't tear down others who are also doing a service.

Churches and non-profit organizations provide spiritual and career guidance for free. Just imagine if you went in for a confessional and the priest required that you pay him $3,000 or any amount of money first. If you're not Catholic, imagine asking your reverend to pray for you and give you advice and he required that you pay a fee first. If CP really wanted to do a service for the Christian community, it would operate as a non-profit and ask for donations with maybe charging a nominal fee. They operate as a for-profit that charges $3,000 for the first year and over $1,000 for subsequent years because they are in it to make a lot of money first and foremost. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make a lot of money as long as you do it ethically. If CP is using this forum and others to provide their $3,000 services, then that makes their operations even more unethical. For all of that money, they should be able to do more than just help you with LL credits. You don't see anything wrong with the fact that you had to come to this free forum for help after paying a company thousands of dollars? That just makes no sense to me. I'm sorry. That's like paying a tax preparer to do your taxes and then having to go to a free one to do what the first one left behind. I would ask for my money back.

[Westerner]

Once you go through the process once, it's easy to do it again for the other children. It doesn't take long to look up which tests the next child needs to take even though they should be making some decisions on their own and getting some information passed down to them from their adult siblings.

I really don't think you should blame the Duggars without knowing their family situation.

You don't see anything wrong with the fact that you had to come to this free forum for help after paying a company thousands of dollars? That just makes no sense to me. I'm sorry.

We did not know about IC and Degree Forum when we started CP. CP was there when we needed it and I'm grateful they were. After doing most of my degree with them, I didn't renew my coaching because, between their Forums and these, I felt prepared to finish. I'm not complaining now.

I agree, CP may not be needed for every child—in fact, I'm helping my siblings prepare for tests the way CP did for me. But here's an idea: instead of tearing down CP, just build up DF.

[sanantone]

I really don't think you should blame the Duggars without knowing their family situation.

I'm not blaming the Duggars for spending all of that money; they probably have the money to spend. Although, I doubt they are paying for these services. I wouldn't be surprised if they are getting paid to endorse the company.

We did not know about IC and Degree Forum when we started CP. CP was there when we needed it and I'm grateful they were. After doing most of my degree with them, I didn't renew my coaching because, between their Forums and these, I felt prepared to finish. I'm not complaining now.

I agree, CP may not be needed for every child—in fact, I'm helping my siblings prepare for tests the way CP did for me. But here's an idea: instead of tearing down CP, just build up DF.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I already recommend this forum to others. I think it helps to tell people that they don't have to pay money to companies like CP. I've already done that in another forum. Nurses warn others about the College Network all the time. I think they are doing a good deed.

[rebel100]

I look at it this way. There are countless businesses out there who are doing what we could do ourselves for free. You go to a restaurant, and pay for the privilege of not cooking. You hire a housekeeper once a month and pay for the privilege of someone else cleaning your toilets. You go to the barber's and hire someone to do what you could do yourself with a pair of clippers. That's the beauty of America!! Nowhere is CP claiming to hold a secret, or do something you cannot do. They're giving you the opportunity to decide that your time is worth more than your money.

Honestly, between pursuing this process both for myself (I've completed 66 credits in the last 16 months due overwhelmingly to this forum) and for my daughter (taking her first CLEP in a few weeks), I cannot begin to count the hours I've spent learning about TESC, CLEPs, distance learning, etc etc. If I had the money, YES I would pay someone to do it for me! In a heartbeat! Not to mention if I had 18 kids to figure this out for, YES I would pay someone to do it for me!

We live in a capitalist society. Thank God and then go vent some frustration at some of the other craziness in this world. CP doesn't deserve that.

Almost exactly what I was going to say.

CP won't be seeing any of my money....but props to them for creating value and capitalizing on it. I can't imagine the Duggars aren't receiving a serious discount. Economies of scale should drive their price down if there is no direct incentive for them from CP. These people make their own soap for crying out loud!

[Daithi]

I have to say that I'm with Sanantone on this one.

The College Plus website gives the impression that there is some kind of formal arrangement between CP and several "partner" colleges, and that because of this partnership CP is some how offering degrees. Their website mentions things like them having over 50 majors, and they have a button labelled "Apply now to talk with an Admissions Advisor". They are simply not being honest about what they really provide.

The service they really provide is just some guidance to help people navigate the process of earning a college degree through testing. However, if they were honest, very few people would pay them $3,000. As far as I'm concerned, they are taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge, and they are specifically targeting Christian families. Sorry, but what they are doing is just wrong.

I have the skills to put up a website like the College Plus website, but I couldn't sleep with myself if I did so.

[Snickerdoodle]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: CollegePlus is a good "hand-holder" for parents who are unsure of the whole process when first starting out. Some people need and want to have that live phone contact and the additional courses and classes offered. (I've heard that CP somehow offers other UL credit options.) Afterwards renewal is entirely up to the customer. With that said, I think the advice I've received on DegreeForum is worth more than the $3K CP charges. (Oh please don't start charging... ) Too many CP students I've spoken with don't know about DegreeForum, and it's a shame. We need to spread the word about DegreeForum more!!

As for the Duggars' situation...like @FallingWaters mentioned, they have to figure it all out x19. (And imagine all the headaches I've had just for my degrees alone and for no one else.)

[Chebasaz]

Really interesting thread and everyone makes some great points. I'll toss in my 2 cents as long as you don't hold me to that value.

The things that seem incredibly easy and straightforward to me and you, can confuse the heck out of other people. Everyone doesn't surf the internet the same way we do. They don't study for exams the same way we do, and they don't approach degree planning the same way either. That doesn't make them wrong or stupid, it just makes them different. I get at least a dozen Emails a week asking questions which I have already answered on Free-Clep-Prep. Often times, it's simply because they're brand new to the entire test-for-credit world and they're overwhelmed. Once they get started on the path and get through the ton of new information (acronyms, credit types, degree requirements) they're usually fine. You gotta admit, it's a pretty steep learning curve at the beginning.

CP takes that curve away. For $3000, they'll do it all for you and basically take the place of a student adviser. I know you're saying, "But they don't have to!" and you're right. But some people don't care. They want to pay that money. I never can spare the time, but I get requests to tutor and consult constantly. I often point them towards IC, the wiki and a few other free resources. They don't want any of that. It's not about the fact they could get it cheaper or for free. They WANT to pay that money and not have to worry about all this stuff. For those people, I often send them CP's way (no affiliation here) simply because CP is offering a service that they want. It's not the path that I would choose, but hey.. it's not my journey either.

The Duggars endorsing was their own choice, and I can't blame CP for milking that for all it's worth. The down side is like you said, plenty of other people out there will probably never know there's a cheaper way. Plenty of others will though. You guys do a world of good here. You're honestly helping people improve their lives and that's an awesome thing. It's what keeps me lurking here long after my own degree is done, and what keeps me pointing others this way as well. Just keep in mind that not everyone is willing or able to follow the same path.