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TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - ItsNeverTheLionsYear - 05-05-2023
Hello everyone! I'm a new user here who stumbled onto this forum while looking into WGU & Fort Hays, and I've been soaking up old posts like a sponge. This forum is absolutely incredible. It seems like everyone here really knows their stuff - you've already set me straight on what I should be looking for without me even needing to post.
I'm hoping to answer some questions, at the very bottom of this tome I've written, to help me make sure I'm on the right track. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
My background: (skip to the next section header if you don't care)
The short version: Canadian BA, Poli Sci major, Statistics minor, taking community college courses to prepare for masters programs in CS, decided to pick up a bachelor's in CS along the way for job prospects while taking the masters.
I'm an American who went to a Canadian school for undergrad because it was cheaper than local state school at the time, the time being 5-10 years ago. I got a BA in Political Science with a minor in statistics, came back to the US, got an entry-level customer service job, and slowly worked my way into support roles for software companies. My job now gives me a nice fat yuppie paycheck and some hands-on coding experience, mostly SQL, but:
- I do tons of unpaid overtime as is common for this type of job
- They don't let me mess with the interesting stuff because I would break it
I started this process out by looking at CS Master's programs, specifically the MOOC-style ones at big universities, namely UIUC, GT, UT Austin, and Penn. After doing research on their websites, and Reddit, and emailing all of their admissions offices, I found that they all generally want graded courses from regionally accredited institutions in basically the same areas (if you want to know, these are Introductory programming, Object-Oriented Programming, Data Structures, Algorithms, Linear Algebra, Statistics/Probability, Discrete Math, Computer architecture, and C). I am foolish enough to take them at their word, and I also know that some people have had issues in the past with alt-credit working for grad school, so I decided to play it safe. Plus, I do think I'll learn more the way they're suggesting.
I had already taken linear algebra, statistics, and probability in Canada. That left just the more CS-y courses. I put together a plan that would have me take all of the requirements, plus some extra courses for improved job prospects, at a combination of Oakton CC online and a local community college. This plan (which I still intend on completing) spits me out with letter-graded courses for all of the masters' requirements, plus certificates in C++ and Java, by the 2024 winter holidays. From there, I'll take the GRE, apply to schools, get a masters, get a better job than I can get now, marry my girlfriend, raise a family, and eventually die surrounded by loved ones at an advanced age, followed by a crowded funeral.
However, I can't necessarily rely on this plan working out. Unexpected life events are very hard to plan for, plus the tech economy is looking sour for the moment. With that said, people are always desperate for support/service reps because the job objectively sucks, so that should provide me with a decent income until at least Spring 2025, I'd say. If could somehow turn community college credit into a CS bachelor's, I bet I'd have better job prospects sooner. I could probably pivot into a support engineer role pretty much as soon as I get the degree, then enroll in the masters, and then I could use the masters as a springboard into a specialized software area, where the problems are very interesting and the pay is arguably sinful. At least, that's my thinking.
I'm an amazing saver, I put away around half my paycheck every month, but I'm a horrible investor, so my savings are mostly liquid. I do make sure to keep fattening my emergency fund, but even then I figure over two years I can scrounge together $5-6k and put it towards a second BA, plus another $1k for unexpected education-related costs. (I've already accounted for other life costs, including the separate cost of community college courses, in making that calculation.) I do not qualify for a Pell grant, my employer doesn't sponsor tuition, and I don't want to go into debt, so it's paying out of pocket for me.
Why TESU?
TESU checks a lot of boxes for me:
- I can complete the program part-time while working
- It won't take me much longer than I'm already planning on to complete the program
- They'll transfer in lots credit from both a Canadian BA and community colleges
- Cost of getting the degree (not counting community college costs) is less than $7k
- From a public, regionally accredited school. Not being a for-profit is the most essential, but I also do like that it's a public school and not a private nonprofit school
- Doesn't run ads on TV - my worst and snobbiest criteria, but it sure is a criteria of mine
The Plan:
The full plan is attached. The requirements based on my understanding, are:
- Because I'm a second degree student, or should be, most of the degree requirements, including the cornerstone, get waived
- Earn at least 24 credits that didn't count towards my previous BA
- Earn at least 18 upper-level credits (3 of those being the capstone)
- Earn at least 18 CS-related elective credits
- Earn at least 6 general science elective credits (unclear if they can also be CS-related or if they must NOT be CS-related)
- Calculus I (Sophia, Calc I)
- Operating Systems (SDC, CompSci 305 Operating Systems)
- Python Programming (Sophia, Intro to Python)
- System Analysis and Design I (SDC, CompSci 302 System Analysis and Design)
- Artificial Intelligence (SDC, CompSci 311 Artificial Intelligence)
- I took Calc I as an AP class, AB calc, in high school. Do I have to take it again? I've written the plan assuming the answer is "yes, I do have to take it again".
- Is the minimum grade to transfer is a C, or something else? I did get some Cs, especially in Calculus classes.
- Have the Sophia credits bolded above transferred successfully for other students before? (For SDC I assume their partnership catalog is correct.)
- I understand that I can get some elective credit beyond the second degree Gen ed/general electives waivers for AoS-relevant courses. Is Calc III one of those courses? I've (somewhat riskily) added it to the plan assuming "yes, it is AoS-relevant".
- I'm confused about when I should apply. The wiki says that if you apply, you have to register for a course or a TECEP to be "active" and get more than two transcript evaluations, but then also that you don't get a refund for that TECEP if you cancel, and that you have to do this every year. Assuming I take my capstone in spring 2025, should I just wait until Fall/Winter 2024 to apply?
- Am I correctly understanding that students seeking a second bachelor's degree only three big ($100+) fees: The $3288 residency waiver, $1605 in tution, and the $298 graduation fee?
Additionally, I have a bunch of courses that I plan on taking from community colleges, and from my first BA, that don't currently figure into my TESU plan. In your non-advisorial, non-binding, layperson opinion, based purely on the names of these courses, do any of these look like they might transfer?
Community college courses:
CompSci 2XX (Advanced Java) - Local CC
CompSci 2XX (Web Programming) - Local CC
CSC 255 (Objects and Algorithms) - Oakton CC
CompSci 2XX (Objects in C++) - Local CC
First BA courses:
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics I)
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics II)
Math 2XX (Statistical Programming)
Math 1XX (Calculus II)
Math 3XX (Probability)
Math 3XX (Statistics)
Math 4XX (Regression & ANOVA)
Thank you for reading this massive post all the way through, and thank you to everyone on this forum - this place does incredible work and you should all be proud of it.
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - bjcheung77 - 05-05-2023
@ItsNeverTheLionsYear, Welcome to the board, great first post introduction! I had fun reading this as you pretty much filled in most of the template, last post addendum, and provided some extra details. How young are you? I think at minimum about a decade, a dozen or more years younger than me at least. Which school did you get your BA?! When reading this, it reminded me of my studies over two dozen years ago! Tuition at a community college or institute of technology was so much cheaper in Canada, I took so many credits back then at $36CDN/credit ($28 USD).
1) Your calculus is good, even if you got a C in college or just passed the AP, it's still a pass!
2) Sophia.org courses are fine, students have recently transferred them in recently.
3) Calc III is fine, you have 45 credits required for the major, 6 credits are in additional math/science electives
4) Appy now, the TECEP is to enroll yearly so you keep your catalog year just in case 'requirement changes' happen
5) Yup... You missed the application fee, and any other transcript fees, costs of remaining transfer credits
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - rachel83az - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Earn at least 6 general science elective credits (unclear if they can also be CS-related or if they must NOT be CS-related)
It's really easiest, and cheapest, to just do Sophia's Human Biology and Environmental Science classes. You do not need the Human Biology lab. The science classes can, technically, be computer science-related if you really want (see part D here). However, there aren't that many available comp sci classes in the first place.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: I took Calc I as an AP class, AB calc, in high school. Do I have to take it again? I've written the plan assuming the answer is "yes, I do have to take it again".
You do not have to take it again, so long as the AP exam is on a transcript that you can send to TESU. If you have difficulty with that, it might or might not be easier to just take the class again. However...
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Is the minimum grade to transfer is a C, or something else? I did get some Cs, especially in Calculus classes.
You only need Calc I for a Comp Sci degree. If you took Calc II/III/etc., those can also be used for the calculus requirement. Per https://www.tesu.edu/admissions/ug-policies-affect-degree-progress English Comp and AOS classes must have at least a C grade.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Have the Sophia credits bolded above transferred successfully for other students before? (For SDC I assume their partnership catalog is correct.)
As long as the class has a transfer equivalency listed on https://degreeforum.miraheze.org/wiki/Sophia.org_Equivalency_List then someone has transferred it to TESU. If there is a blank space, nobody has reported transferring it; we won't know what it comes in as until someone reports it. If there is an explanation, such as "developmental credits", then it doesn't transfer.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: I understand that I can get some elective credit beyond the second degree Gen ed/general electives waivers for AoS-relevant courses. Is Calc III one of those courses? I've (somewhat riskily) added it to the plan assuming "yes, it is AoS-relevant".
The degree plan will make a lot more sense once you're an actual TESU student. Comp Sci degrees require 6 additional credits of math, science, or computer science for the AOS electives. Calculus will count here, if not used for the Calculus AOS requirement.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: I'm confused about when I should apply. The wiki says that if you apply, you have to register for a course or a TECEP to be "active" and get more than two transcript evaluations, but then also that you don't get a refund for that TECEP if you cancel, and that you have to do this every year. Assuming I take my capstone in spring 2025, should I just wait until Fall/Winter 2024 to apply?
You should apply immediately. It's already May and TESU publishes catalog changes, if applicable, in July. If you haven't at least applied, you will be beholden to whatever changes they make to the catalog. Some people have had their entire plan upturned because they weren't TESU students when the catalog changed, meaning they had to put in a lot of extra (and theoretically unnecessary) work to get their degrees.
There isn't really any reason why it should take you until 2025 to take your Capstone course. However, assuming your timeline is accurate, there are 2 potential catalog changes between now and fall 2024 that could make it more difficult to complete your degree and stretch out your timeline even longer. Don't get caught in that trap.
Yes, there is a $50 application fee. The Medical Terminology TECEP is another $50 every time you pay for it. Consider it as an enrollment fee. It's really a small price to pay to ensure that you're still able to obtain the degree you desire.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Am I correctly understanding that students seeking a second bachelor's degree only three big ($100+) fees: The $3288 residency waiver, $1605 in tution, and the $298 graduation fee?
Plus the application fee and TECEP(s). Transcript sending fees. Also, considering you'll have Canadian transcripts, you'll have to pay to have those evaluated. It should be about $200 for the first transcript and $100 for each additional transcript.
(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Community college courses:
CompSci 2XX (Advanced Java) - Local CC
CompSci 2XX (Web Programming) - Local CC
CSC 255 (Objects and Algorithms) - Oakton CC
CompSci 2XX (Objects in C++) - Local CC
First BA courses:
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics I)
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics II)
Math 2XX (Statistical Programming)
Math 1XX (Calculus II)
Math 3XX (Probability)
Math 3XX (Statistics)
Math 4XX (Regression & ANOVA)
These look good. They should all transfer just fine, though there isn't sufficient room on your transcript for all of those math courses. You might be able to pick up a BSBA CIS in addition to the BACS, if you want. It wouldn't be that many additional classes needed and this could help you with future promotions if you want to get into management. TESU's current policy should allow students to graduate with two TESU degrees, even if they have a prior degree from elsewhere. They might try to tell you no, but at least one student here has completed a non-TESU degree prior to their 2nd TESU degree. Picking up the BSBA CIS would result in more "useful" slots for at least Probability or Statistics. The BSBA is completely optional, though, and feel free to aim solely at the BACS.
Finally, I would go ahead and finish up any classes that you're already enrolled in and have paid for, but there is probably no reason why you need credits from a CC. Students here have gotten into grad school with fewer CC credits than you have now. This includes schools like Georgia Tech accepting Study.com classes as prerequisite courses. Which school(s) are you wanting to go to? We might have students here who can give you information on what they're actually looking for, not just assumptions.
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - ItsNeverTheLionsYear - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 01:14 AM)bjcheung77 Wrote: @ItsNeverTheLionsYear, Welcome to the board, great first post introduction! I had fun reading this as you pretty much filled in most of the template, last post addendum, and provided some extra details. How young are you? I think at minimum about a decade, a dozen or more years younger than me at least. Which school did you get your BA?! When reading this, it reminded me of my studies over two dozen years ago! Tuition at a community college or institute of technology was so much cheaper in Canada, I took so many credits back then at $36CDN/credit ($28 USD).
1) Your calculus is good, even if you got a C in college or just passed the AP, it's still a pass!
2) Sophia.org courses are fine, students have recently transferred them in recently.
3) Calc III is fine, you have 45 credits required for the major, 6 credits are in additional math/science electives
4) Appy now, the TECEP is to enroll yearly so you keep your catalog year just in case 'requirement changes' happen
5) Yup... You missed the application fee, and any other transcript fees, costs of remaining transfer credits
Thank you! I'm in my mid-twenties now. I went to McGill up in Montreal - all universities in Quebec are public, Quebec tuition is dirt cheap for Quebec residents thanks to goverment subsidies and the students' willingness to riot if they ever raise it, and for a while international tuition was pegged to the in-province rate, so it was also cheap. Don't think that's true anymore. The cost of living in Montreal was also dirt cheap at the time because if you wanted a job you either have to speak both French and English fluently or be well-connected to the locals. Also think that's not true anymore thanks to the pandemic and remote work.
Those college rates are crazy low! Doesn't look like that anymore. Apparently you have to drop $1k at Humber just to start taking classes. Nuts.
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - allvia - 05-05-2023
2nd Degrees work very differently at TESU than first bachelor, you may be much closer than you realize. I would recommend you apply, send in all your current credits and then you'll have a solid understanding of what you need. Don't waste time on courses you very well may not even need due to it being a 2nd degree. Depending on what school you attended in Canada it may or may not need to be evaluated as foreign credits - I'd apply and see what TESU says about the transcript 'as is'. Plus it will lock in your catalog to the current year (changes, if any, tend to happen July 1)
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - ItsNeverTheLionsYear - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 03:42 AM)rachel83az Wrote:(05-05-2023, 12:41 AM)ItsNeverTheLionsYear Wrote: Community college courses:
CompSci 2XX (Advanced Java) - Local CC
CompSci 2XX (Web Programming) - Local CC
CSC 255 (Objects and Algorithms) - Oakton CC
CompSci 2XX (Objects in C++) - Local CC
First BA courses:
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics I)
Math 2XX (Principles of Statistics II)
Math 2XX (Statistical Programming)
Math 1XX (Calculus II)
Math 3XX (Probability)
Math 3XX (Statistics)
Math 4XX (Regression & ANOVA)
These look good. They should all transfer just fine, though there isn't sufficient room on your transcript for all of those math courses. You might be able to pick up a BSBA CIS in addition to the BACS, if you want. It wouldn't be that many additional classes needed and this could help you with future promotions if you want to get into management. TESU's current policy should allow students to graduate with two TESU degrees, even if they have a prior degree from elsewhere. They might try to tell you no, but at least one student here has completed a non-TESU degree prior to their 2nd TESU degree. Picking up the BSBA CIS would result in more "useful" slots for at least Probability or Statistics. The BSBA is completely optional, though, and feel free to aim solely at the BACS.
Finally, I would go ahead and finish up any classes that you're already enrolled in and have paid for, but there is probably no reason why you need credits from a CC. Students here have gotten into grad school with fewer CC credits than you have now. This includes schools like Georgia Tech accepting Study.com classes as prerequisite courses. Which school(s) are you wanting to go to? We might have students here who can give you information on what they're actually looking for, not just assumptions.
You guys rock, seriously. Thank you for all the notes on transfer equivalencies and fees! I do think I'm just going to go for the BACS - no interest in management here, I'm skittish and disorganized. Definitely will enroll ASAP.
Point taken about the community college courses, and you've convinced me to at least spend more time mulling it over. That said, I do have my reasons for taking the community college route:
- The grad programs I'm currently looking at are Georgia Tech's MSCS, UT Austin's MSCS, Illinois' MCS, and Penn's MSE-DS. Penn's a reach that I don't think I'm going to pull off and also expensive, but my parents would be thrilled, so I have to try. I know I could probably get into Georgia Tech and UT Austin with just SDC courses, but it's been my understanding that Illinois does reject people with lots of transfer credits.
- Illinois is my top pick among this group. My extended family's all from Chicago (although not me specifically), many of them went to UIUC themselves, and I'll probably also wind up living and working most of my life in Chicago. I've experienced firsthand how the name of a school can land jobs, and I don't want to close that door prematurely.
- I'm leaning towards an online professional CS masters', but I don't want to rule out an in-person CS research masters, especially if I do wind up living in Chicago or another city just lousy with low-to-mid tier universities that would take a part-time master's student. I don't want to rule out a research masters because I might want to get a PhD one day (maybe I'll get really into AI, who knows), and you need research experience that I don't have to start a PhD program. It's my understanding that taking mostly SDC courses would likely disqualify me from getting into research masters' programs.
- I've set up the community college courses so that I come out with language-specific certificates that I can put on a resume. I think it'll give an extra boost to the job search when it comes to that point. Plus, the local community college offers courses in very specific subject areas for tech stacks outside of the JS/React realm (Java Spring! PHP!), and doing support for the less bootcampable tech stacks commands a higher premium.
- I can convince managers, family members, etc to give me time to work on a CC course in a way that would not be convincing for an SDC course. Very specific to my personal situation, but it is a factor.
- I want a genuinely rigorous learning program where I come out of it with knowledge to back up the credential. I don't want to find myself in a job where I just can't do the work, or in a master's program when I'm not able to handle the material. I think the community college courses are the best way to accomplish that.
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - rachel83az - 05-05-2023
Just FYI, most Comp Sci courses aren't that rigorous when compared to what you'll actually need on the job. Whether you continue with CC classes or you do go with SDC for at least some of them, I strongly recommend utilizing OSSU for your learning. https://github.com/ossu/computer-science These are some of the most rigorous (yet freely available) courses out there. They'll almost certainly rival anything you could take in an average comp sci program.
RE: TESU BA CS Degree - Second degree, first degree from Canadian university - ItsNeverTheLionsYear - 05-05-2023
(05-05-2023, 11:15 AM)rachel83az Wrote: Just FYI, most Comp Sci courses aren't that rigorous when compared to what you'll actually need on the job. Whether you continue with CC classes or you do go with SDC for at least some of them, I strongly recommend utilizing OSSU for your learning. https://github.com/ossu/computer-science These are some of the most rigorous (yet freely available) courses out there. They'll almost certainly rival anything you could take in an average comp sci program.
Fair point. I'm not 100% sure what direction I'll take the courses now - my leaning at this time is to scale back the local CC Java courses since I was planning on taking them mostly for employability reasons, get Java credits via Sophia or SDC, and learn Java more through self-study and personal projects, but also that I should still keep enough CC courses to cover grad-school-required areas and keep the in-person research route open. Who knows how I'll feel after a couple more hours though.
Thank you for showing me OSS U - what a resource!