+- Online Degrees and CLEP and DSST Exam Prep Discussion (https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb)
+-- Forum: Main Category (https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Forum-Main-Category)
+--- Forum: General Education-Related Discussion (https://www.degreeforum.net/mybb/Forum-General-Education-Related-Discussion)
+--- Thread: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree (/Thread-trade-school-instead-of-a-bachelor-s-degree)
trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - clep3705 - 04-13-2019
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-13/big-money-no-debt-the-blunt-new-pitch-for-blue-collar-workers?srnd=premium
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - sanantone - 04-13-2019
The author is misinformed. The trades are viable options for decent-paying jobs, but the author could have made this argument without focusing so much on outliers. Most plumbers are not making $90k. There are K-12 teachers making close to six figures, and there is a severe shortage of teachers, but you have to be realistic. Most teachers won't make that much.
On the other forum, I posted an article on a study done on black youth attending trade programs in Baltimore. Most of them chose to attend for-profit trade schools. The percentage who earned certifications was only 31%. The percentage who earned certifications at community colleges was even lower. However, the for-profit students ended up in so much debt for these less than 1 to 2-year programs that they would have been better off just going to a nonprofit college or no college at all. It's a fallacy that trade students don't accumulate debt; they have some of the highest student loan default rates.
The two main reasons why students weren't finishing were that they learned they didn't like the occupation and that they found out that they weren't qualified. There are various reasons why someone wouldn't be qualified for an occupation. A major one is criminal record. Another one is aptitude. Not everyone has the aptitude to repair airplanes. Many people fail to realize that many of the trades require average to above average skills in mathematics and mechanics. If you have low spatial intelligence, you probably aren't going to do well.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - dfrecore - 04-13-2019
It would be great if students could take tests BEFORE going to a trade school to make sure they have the aptitudes; for instance, if they had to pass a math course to even begin the program (one related entirely to the math they'll encounter in it). There's probably lots of things they could do to make sure someone was a good fit before they spent a dime.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - sanantone - 04-13-2019
(04-13-2019, 04:06 PM)dfrecore Wrote: It would be great if students could take tests BEFORE going to a trade school to make sure they have the aptitudes; for instance, if they had to pass a math course to even begin the program (one related entirely to the math they'll encounter in it). There's probably lots of things they could do to make sure someone was a good fit before they spent a dime.
Community colleges usually require placement exams for college courses, but I'm not sure if this is true for vocational courses. Requiring them for everyone might help their completion rates. This doesn't have to mean that everyone who fails gets turned away; they can take remedial courses along with the degree-seeking students.
For-profit colleges are less likely to require placement tests, but I did work at one that did. I questioned its validity, though. Most of the instructors and myself complained that many of our students couldn't read and write well, and our Director of Education argued that everyone has to get the minimum score for their program of choice to gain admittance.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - MNomadic - 04-13-2019
Most electrician apprenticeships do require that you pass a math test before being accepted in addition to a few other criteria like a background check.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - sanantone - 04-13-2019
(04-13-2019, 05:05 PM)MNomadic Wrote: Most electrician apprenticeships do require that you pass a math test before being accepted in addition to a few other criteria like a background check.
In Texas, apprenticeship training programs for electricians have to be registered, so I figured they were well-regulated. Still, I think you can also work toward a journeyman and master license just by working under a master electrician who isn't operating a training program. Electrical work and plumbing are more regulated than welding.
An interesting tidbit, Penn Foster's electrician program is registered in Texas.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - cookderosa - 04-14-2019
(04-13-2019, 04:19 PM)sanantone Wrote: Community colleges usually require placement exams for college courses, but I'm not sure if this is true for vocational courses. Requiring them for everyone might help their completion rates. This doesn't have to mean that everyone who fails gets turned away; they can take remedial courses along with the degree-seeking students.
When you look at a CC degree requirement, if the math is a transfer math, it will require a placement test. When a department renames their math using the dept alpha, it takes it out of the transfer category and removes the placement requirement.
I did this with my dept's math. Our program launched with a course called Applied Math Topics that was part of the transfer/ liberal arts/ arts and sciences catalog. Our students couldn't hit the benchmark, and the developmental courses were huge barriers, so I actually authored the class Culinary Math that we used from our second year forward (still in use). By taking MAT110 or whatever it was, and transitioning over to CUL110, we assured everyone could come in directly to that math. MANY failed (I've shared that here before) but even still, I still think it was a far better math than the previous course that didn't relate to their field.
I'm no longer at that college, but they have also since created a department based Spanish. So like math, it's now Spanish through the culinary dept. It also means the faculty credentials can be lowered and that the course is no longer a gen ed... so there are pros and cons.
<Major automotive players including Nissan North America, Manheim and Interstate Batteries are pushing young people to become auto technicians through an advocacy group called the TechForce Foundation. It’s urging repair shops to talk up their potential wages as much as possible and go way beyond traditional high school career fairs.
"You gotta get out there and start talking with them in middle school,” said TechForce director of national initiatives Greg Settle.>
My oldest son rec'd 3 scholarships from TechForce and though he's in a specialty program, the guys in the general auto program at his college are being RECRUITED *literally* with full salary jobs that also pay 100% of your student loans and numerous other benefits. They are climbing over each other to one-up the next company so they can get the kids with special training. It's crazy, I don't know that the article is only focused on outliers, I have heard radio ads here announcing open interviews - hiring 20 for plumbers $100,000 each. It's crazy.
I'm not motivated by money, however, I do find myself motivated for my KIDS to have high paying careers - I probably should work on that lol, but I get why parents want their kids to head off to college, really, I do. But with 50% drop out rate, it's not a terrible idea to go with the old-fashioned wisdom of having a trade to "fall back on" before heading to university. All my kids have a trade / certificate of some kind but I'm also heavily pushing all toward grad school too.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - sanantone - 04-14-2019
(04-14-2019, 05:37 PM)cookderosa Wrote:(04-13-2019, 04:19 PM)sanantone Wrote: Community colleges usually require placement exams for college courses, but I'm not sure if this is true for vocational courses. Requiring them for everyone might help their completion rates. This doesn't have to mean that everyone who fails gets turned away; they can take remedial courses along with the degree-seeking students.
When you look at a CC degree requirement, if the math is a transfer math, it will require a placement test. When a department renames their math using the dept alpha, it takes it out of the transfer category and removes the placement requirement.
I did this with my dept's math. Our program launched with a course called Applied Math Topics that was part of the transfer/ liberal arts/ arts and sciences catalog. Our students couldn't hit the benchmark, and the developmental courses were huge barriers, so I actually authored the class Culinary Math that we used from our second year forward (still in use). By taking MAT110 or whatever it was, and transitioning over to CUL110, we assured everyone could come in directly to that math. MANY failed (I've shared that here before) but even still, I still think it was a far better math than the previous course that didn't relate to their field.
I'm no longer at that college, but they have also since created a department based Spanish. So like math, it's now Spanish through the culinary dept. It also means the faculty credentials can be lowered and that the course is no longer a gen ed... so there are pros and cons.
<Major automotive players including Nissan North America, Manheim and Interstate Batteries are pushing young people to become auto technicians through an advocacy group called the TechForce Foundation. It’s urging repair shops to talk up their potential wages as much as possible and go way beyond traditional high school career fairs.
"You gotta get out there and start talking with them in middle school,” said TechForce director of national initiatives Greg Settle.>
My oldest son rec'd 3 scholarships from TechForce and though he's in a specialty program, the guys in the general auto program at his college are being RECRUITED *literally* with full salary jobs that also pay 100% of your student loans and numerous other benefits. They are climbing over each other to one-up the next company so they can get the kids with special training. It's crazy, I don't know that the article is only focused on outliers, I have heard radio ads here announcing open interviews - hiring 20 for plumbers $100,000 each. It's crazy.
I'm not motivated by money, however, I do find myself motivated for my KIDS to have high paying careers - I probably should work on that lol, but I get why parents want their kids to head off to college, really, I do. But with 50% drop out rate, it's not a terrible idea to go with the old-fashioned wisdom of having a trade to "fall back on" before heading to university. All my kids have a trade / certificate of some kind but I'm also heavily pushing all toward grad school too.
Glassdoor, Salary.com, and Indeed have collected salary information from millions of people, so those are good places to look. BLS data are going to be more comprehensive. According to them, only the top 10% of plumbers earn more than $93k.
The auto shop industry probably does need to raise their wages to attract more people because they're kind of low. I thought about completing a correspondence automotive program for myself. Auto repair shops are worse than car salespeople when it comes to scamming customers. I like that some female mechanics have started teaching women basics because women are the most likely to get ripped off. There are also some women who operate repair shops with all women mechanics.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - dfrecore - 04-14-2019
(04-14-2019, 07:32 PM)sanantone Wrote: Glassdoor, Salary.com, and Indeed have collected salary information from millions of people, so those are good places to look. BLS data are going to be more comprehensive. According to them, only the top 10% of plumbers earn more than $93k.
The auto shop industry probably does need to raise their wages to attract more people because they're kind of low. I thought about completing a correspondence automotive program for myself. Auto repair shops are worse than car salespeople when it comes to scamming customers. I like that some female mechanics have started teaching women basics because women are the most likely to get ripped off. There are also some women who operate repair shops with all women mechanics.
It's really hard to find salary info that is good for your particular area; a lot of places will show you national stats, or state, or even regional, but it still may not be good enough to figure out what you personally can make in the area you live.
If you make $93k here in San Diego county, it's a pretty decent salary. But if you make $55k in Podunk, Arkansas, that might be a GREAT salary. It really depends on how much houses cost in your area. So I wouldn't necessarily go by what someone across the country is making - you need to know what you can make where you live, and if that's enough to buy a house or not.
RE: trade school instead of a bachelor's degree - sanantone - 04-14-2019
(04-14-2019, 07:42 PM)dfrecore Wrote:(04-14-2019, 07:32 PM)sanantone Wrote: Glassdoor, Salary.com, and Indeed have collected salary information from millions of people, so those are good places to look. BLS data are going to be more comprehensive. According to them, only the top 10% of plumbers earn more than $93k.
The auto shop industry probably does need to raise their wages to attract more people because they're kind of low. I thought about completing a correspondence automotive program for myself. Auto repair shops are worse than car salespeople when it comes to scamming customers. I like that some female mechanics have started teaching women basics because women are the most likely to get ripped off. There are also some women who operate repair shops with all women mechanics.
It's really hard to find salary info that is good for your particular area; a lot of places will show you national stats, or state, or even regional, but it still may not be good enough to figure out what you personally can make in the area you live.
If you make $93k here in San Diego county, it's a pretty decent salary. But if you make $55k in Podunk, Arkansas, that might be a GREAT salary. It really depends on how much houses cost in your area. So I wouldn't necessarily go by what someone across the country is making - you need to know what you can make where you live, and if that's enough to buy a house or not.
The websites I listed show local data, but they mostly cover large cities. You can't really calculate typical salaries without a good sample size, and many people in the suburbs work in larger cities.
But, if you're writing an article that is speaking to people nationwide, implying that they will make $90k is misleading. The vast majority will not make $90k. It's the same thing with these college debt articles. They sensationalize the "crisis" by cherry picking stories about some kid who decided to get a literature degree at NYU and graduated with $100k in debt even though they admitted to getting accepted to a cheaper university.
"Some plumbers" means about 10% of plumbers, and the plumbers that were talked about in the article only represent 40 plumbers all working at one company in one city.
The title of the chart in the article is not only misleading; it's factually incorrect.
Quote:College, Shmollege
Certain skilled trade jobs pay more than jobs requiring a bachelor's degree.
A more accurate title for that chart is that SOME skilled trade jobs pay more than SOME jobs requiring a bachelor's degree. The average salary of someone with a bachelor's degree was about $50k in 2016, and that chart lists trades paying less than $50k and less than the national average. The chart with their handpicked occupations doesn't represent their conclusion.
In 2014, black women without a college degree had a median income of $34k. Black women with a college degree had a median income of $50k. Even though black women rarely major in STEM fields, they're seeing a pretty good return on their investment. Asian and white women with bachelor's degrees earn even more money.