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The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - sanantone - 08-20-2014
The enrollment "advisors" at my former college lied to all of my students about what one could do with a certificate or associate's in criminal justice. I don't know if they just outright lied or they have little understanding of the field. My guess is that it's a little of both.
A common complaint from my students is that the salespeople told them that they will make a lot of money with their certificates in CJ and that they can become probation/parole officers with an associate's in CJ. The truth is that a certificate in CJ doesn't really have much more value than a high school diploma. Over 90% of law enforcement jobs don't even require a degree. In Texas, almost all of the probation/parole jobs require at least a bachelor's degree. My students started to express a lack of motivation after speaking to students who just graduated from the program. Many are not employed in the field, one is a security guard, one was offered a job as a part-time dispatcher at a very small police department that would have paid her less than $12 an hour, and one is working in a position at a law office that only requires a high school diploma. She's not a paralegal or legal assistant because she wasn't trained as one. She's more of an administrative assistant who does some minor cleaning, takes phone calls, grabs coffee, helps lawyers carry their paperwork to the courthouse, makes copies, etc.
I have a feeling that it is quite common for the admissions "counselors" at for-profit colleges to misrepresent the job prospects of degree programs, but non-profits also have their hands dirty with advertising CJ programs as the way to become a cop. When I go to their CJ websites or see their billboards advertising their CJ programs, I almost always see a picture of a police officer or a security guard. Can you believe that programs advertise that you can become a security guard with your CJ degree? Most security jobs pay less than $15 an hour, and most security companies will hire anyone with a high school diploma and a clean criminal record.
I often felt guilty in my former job. It was terrible how the students were paying $19,000 for a certificate and $28,000 for an associates. I know community colleges are heavily subsidized, but most of my students did not apply to them because they did not know they only charge $2,000 per year. I'm afraid the CCs wouldn't have been a good option for them anyway because most would have been stuck in a year or two of remedial courses. A lot of my students couldn't even read or write at the 6th grade level.
One of the worst parts is that the school advertised the CJ program as hands-on, but didn't want to purchase any equipment. They wanted the low-paid instructors to purchase cheap stuff out of their own pockets. Our former CJ chair would put together mock crime scenes that were so unrealistic that they had no value. While the students complained about instructors who just sat there and never lectured, they didn't really want to hear lectures. They wanted to do law enforcement scenarios. Their expectation, and this is quite common in all CJ programs, is that the program was going to be like a police academy. They wanted to go to the gun range, drive patrol cars, and handcuff people. I told them straight up that if they did not want to listen to lectures, then they were in the wrong major. CJ is a social science with a little law thrown in. They didn't seem to get that. I told them that no matter which school they attended CJ degree programs will be a lot like sociology programs. I had an instructor tell me that the students didn't want to learn about social problems. You can't teach CJ without teaching social problems. If there were no social problems, there would be no criminal justice system!
One good thing my school started to do was give background checks to prospective students, but several of them have admitted to smoking marijuana. Unless they are really good at lying and nothing comes up while interviewing their friends, family, neighbors, and former employers and coworkers, they are not going to get into a police department if they smoked marijuana in the past couple of years. Another terrible thing is that we had a 60-something year old man in the program who wanted to become a criminal investigator. He had to get around the school in a motorized chair. There is no way in hell he is going to get that job with his age and limited mobility; he doesn't even know how to use a computer.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - sanantone - 08-20-2014
I forgot. My students became depressed when I told them about the limitations of nationally accredited degrees in the CJ field in Texas. They already knew that University of Phoenix and Devry were the only local schools that would accept their credits, but they did not know about the limited recognition by local police departments. While SAPD and Bexar County do not require college credits, they will give educational incentive pay for degrees from regionally accredited schools, only. The Texas Department of Public Safety, which hires state troopers, requires 60 college credits, but will only accept them from regionally accredited schools. Many police departments will pay more for higher levels of certification: intermediate peace officer, advanced peace officer, and master peace officer. TCOLE reduces the number of years of experience you need for the higher levels of certification if you have a degree, but again, they only recognize degrees from regionally accredited schools.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - rebel100 - 08-20-2014
I'm glad the headline reads "former", sounds like a good place to leave. With that said it's hardly different than any number of "career" schools I see locally. I will never understand why students pick these places over the much better thought of, and generally much cheaper CC solution. It seems students lack the capacity for even the most basic vetting of the institution.
I wouldn't hang the responsibility for this on the neck of the career counselor either, they are generally as dumb to the realities of the workforce as the students they end up fleecing. But end of the day these are grown adults that need to assess their situation better.
I wouldn't be ashamed of your association, but I would use your experience as a stepping stone to better things at places where you can have a greater impact. I'm sure you have a lot to offer students at the right school!
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - sanantone - 08-20-2014
Thanks. I already knew some of this stuff, but I got to put real faces to the stories. Most of my students came from low-income families with no college attendees to guide them. Some of them tried to enroll at the community colleges, but they don't provide nearly the same amount of handholding as for-profit colleges. They didn't know where to fill out an application (it's the Texas Common Application which is offered online and there is no application fee at the local CCs), they didn't know how to get financial aid, they didn't know what testing was required of them, and they didn't know how to choose programs or courses. They could have found out all of this stuff by going to the websites. I don't know why they didn't bother to even compare the tuition rates. They saw a school advertise on t.v., they called the school, and the salespeople bugged the hell out of them until they enrolled. For-profit colleges make the enrollment process painless. They set up your degree plan and help you secure financial aid in a matter of days. I did have one student who tried attending one of the CCs, but she failed so many courses and dropped out. She's still failing courses at this school for not turning in her work on time, but they give you a chance to correct your grade instead of making you take the course all over again.
Their lives are filled with poor choices. That sounds harsh, but it's true. Many of them are on welfare and have had multiple children before the age of 21, but they didn't come from the best environments. Almost all of them have close family members in prison.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - TMW2010 - 08-20-2014
As you know, I was in the same boat, but the school for which I worked was actually regionally accredited. I fought hard as an instructor to give the students the education they deserved for their money, but as always, the school was focused on the bottom line, $. I will say that I think that the experience did wonders for my own teaching ability as far as my outlook; I've become very student-centric and rather resourceful in my teaching, if I do say so myself. The way some of these places treat the students is an incredible disservice to them, and you're right; the students don't know better. They hear 'college' and they think that all schools are the same. They don't know/don't care about the differences in accreditation, or don't have the basic skills needed to find out and untangle the mess. Some are easily led by the idea of being able to achieve the American Dream of getting a college degree and a good job right out of the gate, and think that's basically all they have to do. Some are harassed by admissions until they break and sign up, where they're then harassed by the faculty to ensure they continue to at least get attendance so they aren't dropped - not because the school wants them to succeed, but because the school doesn't want to lose the numbers. Faculty are forced to cajole students who declare an intention to withdraw from school to ensure they finish out the course (attendance-wise) so they can start the cycle all over again. Some are just enrolled to get a stipend/disbursement from their FA (which, at the cost-per-credit at some of these schools ends up not being much at all) and play the attendance game until they get kicked out for violations of SAP (Satisfactory Academic Process) policy. I was always amused that admissions seemed to target women who were 7 months pregnant, knowing that they'd get through 1-2 classes, and probably not return after the birth of their child. That made retention efforts just so much fun..
I'm hoping I'm done with the for-profit industry. But, since it's my only official college-level teaching experience, I'm having a hard time breaking into the non-profit sector. So, I'm currently in the process of getting my state teaching certificate and looking at doing some time in 6-12 teaching (Psychology/Sociology, and if needed, computer courses). I figure it's a win-win, because a lot of the schools in my area are looking for a couple years of k-12 experience for teaching college courses in education, so hopefully that combined with my completed doctoral degree will get my foot in the door for teaching at a state school. Who knows, I may even switch to administrative capacity, and become one of the evil drains on state funding.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - sanantone - 08-20-2014
TMW2010 Wrote:As you know, I was in the same boat, but the school for which I worked was actually regionally accredited. I fought hard as an instructor to give the students the education they deserved for their money, but as always, the school was focused on the bottom line, $. I will say that I think that the experience did wonders for my own teaching ability as far as my outlook; I've become very student-centric and rather resourceful in my teaching, if I do say so myself. The way some of these places treat the students is an incredible disservice to them, and you're right; the students don't know better. They hear 'college' and they think that all schools are the same. They don't know/don't care about the differences in accreditation, or don't have the basic skills needed to find out and untangle the mess. Some are easily led by the idea of being able to achieve the American Dream of getting a college degree and a good job right out of the gate, and think that's basically all they have to do. Some are harassed by admissions until they break and sign up, where they're then harassed by the faculty to ensure they continue to at least get attendance so they aren't dropped - not because the school wants them to succeed, but because the school doesn't want to lose the numbers. Faculty are forced to cajole students who declare an intention to withdraw from school to ensure they finish out the course (attendance-wise) so they can start the cycle all over again. Some are just enrolled to get a stipend/disbursement from their FA (which, at the cost-per-credit at some of these schools ends up not being much at all) and play the attendance game until they get kicked out for violations of SAP (Satisfactory Academic Process) policy. I was always amused that admissions seemed to target women who were 7 months pregnant, knowing that they'd get through 1-2 classes, and probably not return after the birth of their child. That made retention efforts just so much fun..
I'm hoping I'm done with the for-profit industry. But, since it's my only official college-level teaching experience, I'm having a hard time breaking into the non-profit sector. So, I'm currently in the process of getting my state teaching certificate and looking at doing some time in 6-12 teaching (Psychology/Sociology, and if needed, computer courses). I figure it's a win-win, because a lot of the schools in my area are looking for a couple years of k-12 experience for teaching college courses in education, so hopefully that combined with my completed doctoral degree will get my foot in the door for teaching at a state school. Who knows, I may even switch to administrative capacity, and become one of the evil drains on state funding.
The good thing is that I did learn how to teach through trial and error. It was very rough at first as it was for all the new hires because they just throw you right in there without any preparation. I didn't know which classes I was going to teach until a week or so before I took over my own classes. And, there was so much damn paperwork. What I found disturbing is that the director of education told me that the students needed to believe that their certificates and degrees were needed to enter the CJ field. We received bonuses based on attendance and lack of drops and Fs. We had to contact the students everyday they were absent. They were also contacted by their academic counselors everyday they were absent. This didn't do any good because the students knew they could complete all of their work online through Canvas (a lot like Blackboard and Moodle). I don't know why the students were so averse to taking online courses, but didn't care to show up to class. Our students also received a stipend monthly of leftover financial aid. Like you said, it wasn't much because the tuition was so high.
A couple of times, I was pressured to pass students just because they were at the end of the program. I taught the last set of courses of the CJ program, so I would get students near graduation who should have been kicked out a long time ago. I had a student who got through the whole program by cheating. He didn't know ANYTHING about CJ. I was told to modify assignments for him and another student so that they could pass. Quite a few of my students hated my guts for turning them in for plagiarism, but a couple of them later on thanked me. They said that the other instructors don't even bother to read their assignments. The fact that I read their assignments and adhered to grading standards showed that I cared. I tried my best to make sure they graduated knowing the basics, but most of them wouldn't pay attention to the lectures or read their textbooks because they didn't care about academics. They just wanted the credential they thought they needed for a job. Apparently, this is common across the board in CJ programs because my professors and classmates who are instructional assistants say that even traditional students at the undergraduate level in CJ programs don't care about academics.
Colleges/universities do like to see teaching experience on your CV, but I don't know if this job will help me or stigmatize me. I won't get teaching experience in the doctoral program because I will be a research assistant instead of an instructional assistant. Oh, well.
Did I mention that the school charges $1,000 for a $500 laptop? That's a bonus they advertise in their commercials, but the cost is tacked on to their tuition and fees. They were able to opt out when the laptop program first started, but it's now mandatory.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - UptonSinclair - 08-20-2014
Have you considered reporting them to the Department of Education? It is a shame schools like this are allowed to abuse the Pell Grant program.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - sanantone - 08-20-2014
The DOE is not really that hands-on unless a for-profit breaks the 90/10 rule or is paying commission to admissions reps. The school is monitored by ACCSC, the Texas Workforce Commission, and the Texas Board of Nursing. Their nursing program is top notch, so there are no issues there. The other two agencies only care about administrative stuff.
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - Johann - 08-20-2014
sanantone Wrote:Another terrible thing is that we had a 60-something year old man in the program who wanted to become a criminal investigator. He had to get around the school in a motorized chair. There is no way in hell he is going to get that job with his age and limited mobility; he doesn't even know how to use a computer.Right -but he might do OK on Ironside.
Seriously, I think there should be a real criminal investigation or two concerning the school. Johann
The Salespeople at My Former Employer Lied to Prospective Students - jallen - 08-21-2014
Sanantone I applaud you in your efforts to reach out to the misinformed. When they say education is critical its not just book smarts but street smarts as well but its no different than a hospitality degree which has attendees changing bedsheets all day. Sooner or later it's all gonna catch up with the greedy pricks one day. I told my brother the best way to get rich is to set up your own college.