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+--- Thread: Why do people attend "for profit" universities? (/Thread-Why-do-people-attend-for-profit-universities)
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - soliloquy - 02-09-2014
Why aren't companies like UoP, Argosy, Capella, etc. losing students with the recent number of public not for profit universities that offer online programs. I just don't get it.
I was looking at a friend's profile on Facebook. He received a Masters from Argosy. I didn't know anything about Argosy and I've been on the hunt for Grad Schools so I decided to go check it out. Tuition: as high as 995 per credit hour!
I have a cousin who could have gone to a community college to get her AA because our community college was only 66/credit hour but she chose UoP. She could have benefited from the fact that the community college lets you transfer your AA as a block to any of the 16 colleges that make up UNC System.
I see so many friends on facebook attending these for profit universities and I just don't understand it. Why are people so willing to just throw money away and end up with tens of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.
How can we get the word out that there are MUCH better options.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - sanantone - 02-09-2014
soliloquy Wrote:Why aren't companies like UoP, Argosy, Capella, etc. losing students with the recent number of public not for profit universities that offer online programs. I just don't get it.
I was looking at a friend's profile on Facebook. He received a Masters from Argosy. I didn't know anything about Argosy and I've been on the hunt for Grad Schools so I decided to go check it out. Tuition: as high as 995 per credit hour!
I have a cousin who could have gone to a community college to get her AA because our community college was only 66/credit hour but she chose UoP. She could have benefited from the fact that the community college lets you transfer your AA as a block to any of the 16 colleges that make up UNC System.
I see so many friends on facebook attending these for profit universities and I just don't understand it. Why are people so willing to just throw money away and end up with tens of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.
How can we get the word out that there are MUCH better options.
UoP has lost about half of its enrollment numbers. They went from having almost 500k students to having 200k and something students in a few years. The main reason why most for-profit college students ended up choosing those schools is simple: advertisement. Many people don't bother to check to see if their local colleges offer online, weekend, and/or evening courses. Their assumption is that traditional colleges are not going to be flexible enough for them. They end up seeing UoP or similar advertising on t.v., a billboard, or online and think those types of schools are their only option. I'm used to hearing for-profits students say that so and so school was their only option. When I spout off this large list of non-profit colleges with online programs, they are dumbfounded.
Another big reason is that for-profits make the admissions process easy. Everything is streamlined. Their salespeople are really good at getting prospective students to commit quickly. As Publius2k4 said in his Capella thread, you're not even given time to think. If you don't enroll right away, they will repeatedly call, email, and mail you solicitations. I inquired about Kaplan College once and they mailed me brochures for like 2 years. I've noticed that some non-profits are resorting to these sales tactics. Back to the admissions process, for-profit schools will hold your hand through the whole admissions, financial aid, and course registration process. APUS will even order your transcripts for you. For those who do not have family members with college backgrounds, the admissions and financial aid process can seem daunting. These students tend to also not know anything about national accreditation vs. regional accreditation vs. unaccredited, programmatic accreditation, what's considered a reasonable tuition rate, and for-profit vs. non-profit.
One last big reason is that 99% of for-profit colleges have bare minimum admissions standards. They also don't require placement tests, therefore, there are no remedial courses. It's either sink or swim. Some people become frustrated with community colleges because they are made to take a semester or more of remedial courses after scoring poorly on a placement test. UoP has indirectly admitted that many of its students are not ready for college-level work by setting up a special curriculum for those without at least 15 transfer credits, IIRC. This was their new plan to increase retention after for-profit colleges started facing increased scrutiny from the media and federal government. The bad part is that these courses aren't in addition to whats in the regular program; they are in replacement of those courses. These courses have strange names, so they are sometimes difficult to transfer. While I had no problems with TESC and COSC recognizing my writing courses from Western International University as English Comp courses, two community college systems in Texas would not accept them. WIU is owned by the same company that owns UoP.
Concerning for-profit grad schools, the GPA requirements are usually not that high and a graduate admissions test is rarely required. You might not even need letters of recommendation. There are non-profits that might even be cheaper with really low admissions requirements, but some people just don't take the time to search for them.
In rare cases, the for-profit college might actually be cheaper or offer the only option. There are a lot of schools accredited by DETC that don't offer financial aid, but they are exceptionally cheap and offer payment plans. Their goal is to not leave their students in debt. I noticed that brick and mortar for-profits accredited by ACCSC and ACICS tend to offer day and night classes and other things like laptops and daycare included in the tuition, although, their tuition rates are usually ridiculous.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - JBtesc - 02-09-2014
I still don't understand how UoP is regionally accredited.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - sanantone - 02-09-2014
JBtesc Wrote:I still don't understand how UoP is regionally accredited.
This takes me to another topic. Maybe most of you haven't noticed, but most of the large for-profits are in the Higher Learning Commission's North Central Association. There is a good reason why APUS moved from the Southern Association to the North Central Association; SACS will not accredit 100% virtual colleges. Now, for the other for-profits with campuses (which is most of them), they knew that HLC was the most lenient regional accreditor. The federal government took note of this and pressured HLC to increase its standards. Was UoP ever put on notice or probation? I can't remember, but they were close to it. Ashford's accreditation troubles came when HLC decided they shouldn't be their accreditor since most of their operations are in California. When Ashford decided to apply for WASC accreditation because HLC would not be renewing their accreditation in a few years, they were initially rejected. WASC noted Ashford's high dropout rates and focus on marketing instead of education. The average for-profit spends a lot more on marketing than education. Luckily for their students, Ashford had the resources to quickly make changes which included hiring a lot more full-time faculty. To conclude, HLC was accrediting schools the other regional accreditors probably would have denied.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - soliloquy - 02-09-2014
This is a summary of the UoP position vs. Frontline's response to UoP's position. It's pretty interesting and this is taken, of course, from "College Inc." the documentary or perhaps documdrama. LOL
[COLOR="#0000FF"]For-profit institutions are under-regulated
U of P: University of Phoenix is one of the most heavily regulated institutions in the country. Since our inception, we have participated in 30 accreditation visits by regional accrediting bodies, 35 evaluations by state education agencies and undergone 10 administrative reviews by U.S. Department of Education. At our last Higher Learning Commission accreditation visit, University of Phoenix was awarded a 10-year grant of accreditation - the longest period of time for which an institution can receive approval without an interim review visit.
FRONTLINE Responds: The University of Phoenix sets great store by its oversight, in particular by the accreditation process. But that process is considered "problematic." In a speech on April 28, a senior Department of Education official described it that way, pointing out the "inherent conflicts of interest" that exist because accreditation is a peer review process and likening it to the way credit rating agencies work on Wall Street. He also pledged new federal guidance on the way accreditation should work.
For-profit institutions lack quality standards
U of P: University of Phoenix offers a comprehensive approach to higher education, with more than 100 degree programs at the associate through doctoral levels. Our programs are held to the same rigorous accreditation standards as public four-year colleges and universities, in addition to the myriad of regulatory standards for a market-driven institution. University of Phoenix is regionally accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association, one of six regional accrediting bodies considered to be the gold standard of accreditation. Regional accreditation is as rigorous for University of Phoenix as it is for the other colleges and universities accredited by the North Central Association, which include Northwestern University, University of Notre Dame, University of Michigan, Ohio State University and University of Arizona, to name a few. University of Phoenix is also approved by higher education regulating agencies or bodies in 43 states, with additional program-specific state approvals as required. State approvals include rigorous academic standards, and site reviews by teams of higher education experts are often required.
FRONTLINE Responds: The accreditation standards, as critics have noted, are not necessarily a good gauge of a University's success in teaching. Accreditation does not mean that the University of Phoenix has the same academic standards as other accredited universities.
The University of Phoenix does do more than other for-profit colleges in publishing information on its student body and outcomes in the form of an Annual Academic Report (AAR), which it started in 2008.
FRONTLINE was interested in reporting further on the quality of education at the University of Phoenix beyond what is in its AAR, including the differences between online and ground campus courses. In a letter to the University of Phoenix, FRONTLINE asked a series of questions about enrollments, retention and completion, but the University declined to provide the information requested.
For-profit institutions' cost of tuition is approximately five to six times that of community colleges
U of P: It is important to note that while public institutions are subsidized by taxpayers and represent a hefty portion of a state's annual budget, for-profit institutions such as University of Phoenix cost taxpayers substantially less than public and non-profit institutions. Our tuition is in the mid-range nationally for private universities, and our textbook and material costs are dramatically lower than average due to our innovations in making them available in electronic format.
FRONTLINE Responds: The University of Phoenix correctly points out that public universities are subsidized and that for-profit colleges cost the taxpayer substantially less in direct expenditures. However, they did not mention that they receive 86 percent of their revenue from federally backed student loans and that another significant source of Phoenix's revenue is tuition paid for by federally backed loans for students in the US military. So, as many observers have noted, taxpayers are underwriting the for-profit business model and the profits that inure to the benefit of shareholders and executives.
Students of for-profit institutions struggle with excessive debt
U of P: University of Phoenix promotes responsible borrowing practices and is committed to enhancing financial literacy and reducing student debt. In fact, student debt loads at the University are within national averages compared to both public and private, non-profit four-year colleges and universities. Our students (graduating between July 2007 and June 2008) average in loans between $14,200 for associate degrees and $25,221 for bachelor's degrees compared to the national average of $13,041-29,793 (or a mean of $23,200) as reported by the Institute for College Access and Success' December 2009 report, Student Debt and the Class of 2008. Additionally, our most recently reported student loan default rate of 9.3 percent is below the national average of 9.8 percent for comparable schools and well below the national average of 11.0 percent for all proprietary schools combined. University of Phoenix promotes responsible borrowing practices and is committed to enhancing financial literacy and reducing student debt. We have recently introduced a series of tools to assist students in better understanding the direct and indirect costs of their education, enabling them to make informed payment decisions. Additionally, we have dedicated resources and established partnerships with student loan servicers to communicate early and often with students to help them understand their rights and responsibilities regarding student loan repayment.
FRONTLINE Responds: The University of Phoenix does not point out that their default rate measures only a small proportion of its total defaults. The federal government requires schools to report only the "official" rate - but this rate measures defaults only in the first two years after a student starts repayment. A high official default rate could seriously impact their business as it can trigger a government cut off of access to federal student loans. Moreover, the Government Accounting Office (GAO), in a recent report, noted default rates at for-profit colleges over three and four years after graduation and these show they increase significantly above the "official" two-year rate.
For a fuller discussion of student debt and for-profit colleges, see Chapter X of College Inc. and the latest report from College Board, entitled "Who Borrows Most?" and published in April 2010.
Enrollment counselors at for-profit institutions are incentivized to enroll anyone
U of P: University of Phoenix is committed to providing access to a quality education, while better identifying and enrolling only those students who have a reasonable chance of success in our rigorous degree programs. While enrollment advisors for University of Phoenix are compensated in part based on enrollment factors, the majority of their compensation is based on non-enrollment factors, including student retention, customer service, judgment, professional development, working relationships and communication skills.
FRONTLINE Responds: Enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix and other for-profit colleges are incentivized to enroll large numbers of new students every quarter. As FRONTLINE reported, The University of Phoenix, with no admission of wrongdoing, settled last December with the government and two former enrollment counselors for $67.5 million over incentive compensation issues. Incentive compensation for enrollment counselors was banned by Congress in 1992. In 2002, the Department of Education issued rules interpreting the congressional ban that permitted incentive compensation in certain circumstances. These so-called safe harbors are under review in the current rule-making process initiated by the Obama administration last year. New rules on this and other issues that will affect for-profit colleges will be issued before the end of the year.
For-profit institutions' marketing spend greatly exceeds investments in faculty
U of P: University of Phoenix spends almost twice as much on instructional costs and services than we do on sales and marketing. It is important to note, however, that any measured speculation about our marketing spend should be put into context with our size and scope. University of Phoenix is the largest institution of higher learning in the U.S., serving more than 450,000 students with 100 degree programs offered online and on-campus at more than 200 locations in the U.S. Therefore, our marketing is national, versus local in scope.
FRONTLINE Responds: The University of Phoenix's owner, Apollo Group, argues that it spends almost twice as much on what it calls "instructional costs" as on sales and marketing. It gets there by defining "instructional costs" broadly. But Apollo's own figures show that in 2007 and 2008, the company spent significantly more on sales and marketing than on teaching and classroom expenses. In 2008, for example, Apollo Group spent over $800 million on sales and marketing that year, but only $675 million directly on teaching and classroom expenses.
The rest of "instructional costs" includes expenses such as pay for general administrators, the cost of bad debt when students fail to pay their bills, and the cost of processing financial aid.
Apollo did not provide this breakdown in its 2009 annual financial report.[/COLOR]
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - sanantone - 02-09-2014
UoP has lost lawsuits and has been fined at least a couple of times by the federal government. They were fined once for taking too long to return financial aid overpayments, and they were fined another time for paying commission to admissions counselors, which is illegal. They lost a lawsuit for one campus favoring Mormons in hiring and promotions.
Not only does UoP and other for-profits receive federally-backed loans, they also receive grant money and military tuition assistance. Students at for-profit colleges are more likely to receive government financial aid. To be fair, for-profits tend to attract lower income students who qualify for more aid. However, there are private colleges that receive no government subsidies and charge high tuition rates, but many of them are also very generous with their own grants and scholarships. For-profit colleges must be really nervous about their dropping stock prices because Strayer, Devry, and UoP are now advertising their new scholarships.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - clep3705 - 02-09-2014
The for-profits do a great job of marketing. They do a hard sell and are diligent at securing loans for students.
Tuition at some for-profits is close to the top private universities in the country.
State universities have contracted out the marketing of many degree programs to StateU - Online Degrees Information and Directory, which uses the same hard sell tactics. I used stateu.com to get information about two different academic programs. The marketing people were useless.
I considered taking one course at a for-profit university because they were the only ones offering the course on the weekend. I would have signed up. The salesperson said yes, I could take it, but I'd have to complete all of the prerequisites. I pointed out that I was currently taking the prerequisites at a public university. Then she said their degree seeking students all take this one other course (which she did not ever refer to as a prerequisite) before taking the course I wanted to take. I pointed out that I have a master's degree in that particular subject and that she dare not suggest that I needed to take a course in that field. I never heard back from her.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - sanantone - 02-09-2014
UoP once compared its tuition to the out-of-state tuition at UT Austin, but it's UT Austin. Would you want to spend $50k-60k for a degree from UT Austin or UoP?
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - IrishJohn - 02-09-2014
I've taken 2 grad courses through APUS and have been very pleased with the experience. Why did I choose APUS? Four reasons: cost, ease of admission, regional accreditation (I won't even touch NA schools) and the whole program fit around my crazy work schedule. My career goals are in education, specifically in teaching history at the high school and perhaps community college level one day. I have no desire to teach at the university level, at least those where I'd have to spend my time doing research papers and the like. I want to teach. I'm taking a break at the moment from further grad studies to work on obtaining my teaching license by the end of the year and expect to return to school in January 2015. So will I return to APUS or transfer? That I cannot say at the moment. I do like the program and I don't believe I need a degree from a state school, but old prejudices die hard. I have found a couple I may explore this year, one through WNMU and the other at ULM, which is why I deliberately stopped at 6 credits through APUS since that's the maximum you can transfer to these other schools. WNMU has a liberal admissions policy like APUS but as with the latter requires a thesis and unfortunately is an Interdisciplinary Studies degree and not just History (APUS is History). ULM doesn't require a thesis and the degree is in History but one does need to take the GRE to be admitted. I'd be interested in other ideas if anyone has them, but cost is a factor here. At the present I'm taking the English Praxis in a couple of months and if I decide on ULM, perhaps the GRE by the end of the year. Not looking forward to that at all.
Why do people attend "for profit" universities? - sanantone - 02-09-2014
There aren't too many regionally accredited for-profits that are as reasonably priced as APUS. That makes me wonder why do the other for-profits need to charge so much. APUS hires more full-time and doctoral-level instructors than the average for-profit school. I've heard that their full-time instructors also make over $50k while the other for-profits heavily depend on master-level adjuncts who are paid the equivalent of $10 an hour.