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Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - hkhart - 07-26-2011
I've been going round and round with TESC regarding the following 2 classes. I've sent course descriptions from each relevant catalog but they seem to think that the class work was the same. TESC is saying that they are duplicates of CHE-121, which I've listed below as well. I've sent in another request to re-evaluate, clearly identifying the courses as I listed below, waiting on the response. It is my opinion that the credits I have are not duplicated but reflect the course work described in TESC CHE-113 & CHE-114.
In the end, not sure if it matters, due to needing Gen Chem I & II along with 6 credits of Organic/Biochem but I want the 5 credits, because dangit, I did the work and it wasn't a duplicate course!
Here is evaluation details
Any feedback appreciated (on this and/or eval) - hope it isn't too much information!
The response from TESC - I have no idea what the italicized statement means as it wasn't part of my question to TESC:
Thank you for submitting the 1991-92 catalog description for CHE101 Introduction to Chemistry I. I have compared this description to the course description for CHE106 Introduction to Inorganic, Organic and Biochemistry that you completed in 1993 from Henderson Community College. Please be advised that based upon these descriptions the content of these 2 courses do duplicate. In fact according to the course description for CHE106 printed in Henderson's catalog for that time period CHE106 was not open to students who took CHE105 General College Chemistry I. Therefore neither of these courses can be reclassified.
ACC took Fall 1991
CHE 101 Introduction to Chemistry I 5 credits
For non-science majors, students in occupational and health programs, or students with no chemistry background. Includes the study of measurements, atomic theory, chemical bondings, nomenclature, stoichiometry, solutions, acid and base, gas laws, and condensed states. Laboratory experiments demonstrate the above concepts qualitatively and quantitatively.
Prerequisite: Algebra or consent of Instructor
HCC took Spring 1993
106CHE Introduction to Inorganic, Organic and Biochem
A continuation of CHE 104. A study of selected aspects of inorganic, organic, and biochemistry including the chemistry of metals and nonmetals, introduction to organic functional group chemistry, proteins, nucleic acids and lipids. Lecture, three hours; laboratory, three hours per week. Not recommended for students seeking careers in medicine, science, dentistry, engineering, veterinary science, agricultural sciences, education, or allied fields for which the recommended sequence is CHE 105-107-115. Prereq: CHE 104 or the community college course CHM 100.
TESC
Chemistry I With Lab (CHE-121) 4.00 s.h.*
This course presents the basic principles involved in the study of chemistry. It emphasizes modern theories and laws used in the understanding of the structures and reactions of the elements and compounds and also includes gas laws, stoichiometry, and solution theory.
Chemistry II With Lab (CHE-122) 4.00 s.h.*
This course is a continuation of 1906.100. It covers these topics: equilibria, including acids and bases, complexes, and sparingly soluble compounds, thermodynamics, kinetics, electrochemistry, and solution theory. Descriptive inorganic chemistry is also covered.
Chemistry for Allied Health I (CHE-113) 4.00 s.h.****
Basic principles of chemistry for the student with little or no chemistry background. Includes matter, bonding, reactions, acid bases, ionization, equilibrium and nuclear changes. Brief introduction to organic and biological chemistry. Appropriate course for students in Allied Health, prescience or non-science curricula.
Chemistry for Allied Health II (CHE-114) 4.00 s.h.**
Organic and biochemical aspects of physiological chemistry, explaining and illustrating biochemical pathways in living systems. Includes study of hydrocarbons, alcohol's, ethers, ketoses and aldehydes, isomerism, carboxylic acids, amines, carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, nucleic acids and metabolism.
Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - cookderosa - 07-26-2011
hkhart Wrote:I've been going round and round with TESC regarding the following 2 classes. I've sent course descriptions from each relevant catalog but they seem to think that the class work was the same. TESC is saying that they are duplicates of CHE-121, which I've listed below as well. I've sent in another request to re-evaluate, clearly identifying the courses as I listed below, waiting on the response. It is my opinion that the credits I have are not duplicated but reflect the course work described in TESC CHE-113 & CHE-114.
In the end, not sure if it matters, due to needing Gen Chem I & II along with 6 credits of Organic/Biochem but I want the 5 credits, because dangit, I did the work and it wasn't a duplicate course!
Here is evaluation details
Any feedback appreciated (on this and/or eval) - hope it isn't too much information!
The response from TESC - I have no idea what the italicized statement means as it wasn't part of my question to TESC:
Thank you for submitting the 1991-92 catalog description for CHE101 Introduction to Chemistry I. I have compared this description to the course description for CHE106 Introduction to Inorganic, Organic and Biochemistry that you completed in 1993 from Henderson Community College. Please be advised that based upon these descriptions the content of these 2 courses do duplicate. In fact according to the course description for CHE106 printed in Henderson's catalog for that time period CHE106 was not open to students who took CHE105 General College Chemistry I. Therefore neither of these courses can be reclassified.
ACC took Fall 1991
CHE 101 Introduction to Chemistry I 5 credits
For non-science majors, students in occupational and health programs, or students with no chemistry background. Includes the study of measurements, atomic theory, chemical bondings, nomenclature, stoichiometry, solutions, acid and base, gas laws, and condensed states. Laboratory experiments demonstrate the above concepts qualitatively and quantitatively.
Prerequisite: Algebra or consent of Instructor
HCC took Spring 1993
106CHE
A continuation of CHE 104. A study of selected aspects of inorganic, organic, and biochemistry including the chemistry of metals and nonmetals, introduction to organic functional group chemistry, proteins, nucleic acids and lipids. Lecture, three hours; laboratory, three hours per week. Not recommended for students seeking careers in medicine, science, dentistry, engineering, veterinary science, agricultural sciences, education, or allied fields for which the recommended sequence is CHE 105-107-115. Prereq: CHE 104 or the community college course CHM 100.
TESC
Chemistry I With Lab (CHE-121) 4.00 s.h.*
This course presents the basic principles involved in the study of chemistry. It emphasizes modern theories and laws used in the understanding of the structures and reactions of the elements and compounds and also includes gas laws, stoichiometry, and solution theory.
Chemistry II With Lab (CHE-122) 4.00 s.h.*
This course is a continuation of 1906.100. It covers these topics: equilibria, including acids and bases, complexes, and sparingly soluble compounds, thermodynamics, kinetics, electrochemistry, and solution theory. Descriptive inorganic chemistry is also covered.
Chemistry for Allied Health I (CHE-113) 4.00 s.h.****
Basic principles of chemistry for the student with little or no chemistry background. Includes matter, bonding, reactions, acid bases, ionization, equilibrium and nuclear changes. Brief introduction to organic and biological chemistry. Appropriate course for students in Allied Health, prescience or non-science curricula.
Chemistry for Allied Health II (CHE-114) 4.00 s.h.**
Organic and biochemical aspects of physiological chemistry, explaining and illustrating biochemical pathways in living systems. Includes study of hydrocarbons, alcohol's, ethers, ketoses and aldehydes, isomerism, carboxylic acids, amines, carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, nucleic acids and metabolism.
The red highlight is mine. From my very limited backround I would also say these do duplicate and that the titles (use of the word "introductory") is where these are falling into the same category.
Linda really is a good one to ask since this is her field, but I'll do my best given my pittiful attempt to complete the full chem sequence. Someone can (and should) jump in, but I noticed you didn't have any replies.
Essentially, you have Inorganic -->Organic --> Biochem. The non-majors take intro chem, which includes mostly inorganic with tads of orgo and biochem. I believe that both of your classes would fit in this category. There are probably dozens of ways to package non-major intro chem, but at the end of the day, it's all 1 type of chemistry class. (if they were taken at the same school would likely NOT result in a dupliate because in their department, they would have some type of progressive sequence allowing for non-duplication.)
Also in this arena, you'll find career and technical versions of this class that would 100% for sure all duplicate the intro chem IF (and only if) they college allows it as a science course instead of a trade occupation course (elective). Chem for nurses, chem for health care, chem for chiropractors, etc. are examples that would fit- again, these would NOT be gen chems, these are "boutique chemistry classes." (lol I just made up that name
) The chem MAJORS (and other hard sciences/preMeds/preVets/prePharm/PA) take them as subjects. Ex: Gen chem 1 and 2 are inorganic and taught as a 2 semester subject. Then Organic 1 and 2, (2 semesters) and optionally biochem (1 semester sometimes instead of orgo 2 or in addition to it depending on your college). These courses are labs and are very generic in their titles. Usually exactly like this: General Chemistry I" etc. Those are straightforward and easy to determine duplication.
So, my opinion, is that you're not going to get 2 different classes out of this because they were both for non-majors, thus both considered intros. Sorry. I think the TESC advisor is right. (And I'm sure I've only said that about twice in my life) My hunch is that you're going to get 5 credits as a natural science/general education elective and still need to take Gen Chem 1 & 2.
Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - hkhart - 07-27-2011
Thanks Jennifer! I did not add this part yesterday as my post was long enough, but the following are the pairs to the above classes. Basically, I started AAS MLT program at ACC which required CHE101/102. I then moved to Indiana and enrolled in AAS MLT program at HCC which required 104CHE/106. HCC recognized CHE 101 as = 104CHE. I will have to take the Gen Chem I and II as I understand it. I'm only wanting the credits as the classes did not overlap and again IMO match what TESC lists for their allied health CHE 112/113 classes.
At HCC 104CHE (paired with above 106CHE)
Introductory General Chemistry
A study of general principles including laws of definite and multiple proportions, stochiometry, gases, electronic structure, chemical bonding, periodic relationships, oxidation-reduction, acid bases, chemical equilibrium and acid/bases. Intended for students interested in a one-semester course in general chemistry and recommended for students seeking careers in nursing, nutrition, and allied health science fields. Not open to students who have already completed CHE 105 and CHE 107.
At ACC CHE102 (paired with above CHE101)
Includes the study of hybridization of atomic orbitals for carbon; nomenclature of organic compounds; properties of different functional groups, nomenclature of various biological important compounds, their properties and their biological pathways. Laboratory experiments demonstrate the above topics quantitatively and qualitatively.
Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - Lindagerr - 07-27-2011
i am not at home so cannot check my eval but i took intro to organic i organic andd biochemistry at Brookdale cc in Nj I GOT credit as a gen chem 1 at both Raritan valley CC and at TESC. so I would think youu ould too My guestion is what degree are you going for thatmightt affect things I will look at this more when i get home
Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - hkhart - 07-27-2011
I'm expecting that I will have to take 6 credits of Gen I/II Chem along with the 6 credits of Organic and/or Biochem. In the end, it may not matter, I'm only trying to retain the credit hours in the case that I switch degrees (not likely) or add 2nd AS, 2nd BS degree in which the additional 5 credits are applicable. Again, it may be a non-issue. I appreciate the input!
Am I beating a dead horse here? TESC evaluation - hkhart - 07-28-2011
Well, I finally got a response from TESC. They agreed that the courses do not duplicate each other, however as I expected, the courses were shifted. Intro to Chem I is CHE-121 and CHE-106 which they were classifying as meeting inorganic/bio is now CHE-199 general ed.
As a result of my persistence (or so I feel), my evaluation is now completely different. They are NOW requesting that I show "Demonstration of Currency" in the applied science courses due to them being > 10 years old. The net effect of this is I went from 87 credits applied (not including duplicate course in contest), to 72, which does include the contested course. I certainly can show proof of "DOC"; however it is quite frustrating when I applied to TESC 6/4, sent transcripts tha they received 2/3 on 6/13 and (after prodding) found the third one 6/21, yet my "official" evaluation is still not complete per Sr. Program Advisor? I'm enrolled in 3 gs courses that start 8/1 yet when I try to set up academic advisement online it says it doesn't recognize me!! I guess I'm showing my frustration at having to jump through hoops!