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+--- Thread: Diploma 'arms race' (/Thread-Diploma-arms-race)
Diploma 'arms race' - skybirds - 12-28-2010
We're all know a high school diploma isn't sufficient in landing
a substantial job. It used to be. In fact grade ten was in the 60's
When should the line be drawn as to what society should expect
It now seems that a Bachelors is bare minimum but now it is
edging towards a Masters. I speak in generalities. Specific jobs
require a lot of training. In my opinion an associate and/or a
trade after high school should be the limit. A Masters tend to
aim towards a specific subject. Unless you need it the cost and
time don't justify it. Some people don't have the skills to complete
university beyond Associate or Bachelor level
Diploma 'arms race' - marianne202 - 12-28-2010
As a community college educator I do see both sides of this argument, however, I know we award AAS degrees for cosmetology, gun smithing, electrician, automotive repair, office administration etc. These are all jobs that used to be considered "trade" type jobs that you could just learn on the job. Now we have degrees for these and as such employers want to see these degrees. I think the degree just helps them eliminate prospects with so many unemployed applying for the same job now, they can be picky. Why not choose a college grad over a high school grad, GED holder or nothing at all? This is an employer's market right now, so they can ask for whatever they want. This doesn't mean they will compensate for it, but they can ask for it. A local hospital is requiring their medical coders and billers to get a bachelor's level degree and certification to keep doing the same job some of them have been doing for many years. Their pay isn't increasing, their title isn't changing, but if they just want to keep their job they have to do it.
On the flip side I do see this being run up by the education system. As more people obtained degrees the schools want to keep them by adding more degrees, as such what used to be considered a terminal degree is no longer a terminal degree. An example would be that a few years ago a MHA was considered a terminal degree, now some schools like U of P has introduced a DHA. So now someone such as myself who teaches would be able to teach at the university with an MHA as a terminal degree now needs to get a DHA to teach. Does that seem fair if I have 10 years teaching experience and 20+ years of practical experience to back it up, just because a school creates the programs it changes the landscape all across the board.
Is it a good thing or bad thing? I can't decide. More eduation is always a good thing, but just like a gold card used to be the tops in credit cards years ago, now we have platinum cards and titanium cards now. I think a lot of it is just perception more than actual value or attained status. Schools need to keep students longer and as long as industry makes room and creates demands for these degrees they will keep adding them. Just my two cents, now worth about 3/4th of one cent in this economy!
Diploma 'arms race' - rickyjo - 12-28-2010
I think it's a scam.
More college education is not always a good thing, frankly I'm horrified to think of the things I could have accomplished if I wasn't stuck dealing with bureaucratic colleges and mostly irrelevant classes.
In my free time I find electronics and I tinker, I learn so much more that way. I feel left out of the current educational system. The value of the things I've learned seem shunned in favor of ornate paper and "general education" classes.
But given the state of things:
Thank God for community colleges and those who teach in them (marianne!)!
Diploma 'arms race' - grauwulf - 01-17-2011
rickyjo: I think it depends on what you're after. College can be a wonderful learning experience, but it can also be in the way. Most people on this board, I suspect, are already in their job doing what they want to be doing so it's just a matter of having the paper.
Story time with Grauwulf! I was recently offered a job at a large contractor company with the initials NG. I told them upfront that I was "expecting my degree in May of this year" but somebody ticked the "has a degree" box (not me) anyway. I was made an offer at X dollars. When I pointed out the error and noted that while I expect my degree in May I do not currently have it. "No Problem! we'll just correct that." They did correct it. They also lowered the offer by about 25% (for the same position). I said no thank you.
So, what does this tell us?
1) there is a real value to having a degree. In this case many thousands of dollars.
2) the employer places no (or very little) faith in the degree. They still offered me the same job.
3) people are afraid to think for themselves. If somebody stopped to think they would realize that this is just stupid, but they don't. They don't want to be responsible for taking action, so they follow the guidelines set down by HR. HR has no clue what it takes to be a good engineer so they assume that in order to be 'good' you 'must have a degree'. End of story.
marianne202: I don't think that more 'education' is always a good thing. More knowledge, absolutely. If I spent all of my time acquiring academic knowledge I would develop tacit understanding.
Just a point of view.
Diploma 'arms race' - Maniac Craniac - 01-17-2011
It depends on what you "use" college for. Some people view college as a way to get a well-rounded education. Others, like rickyjo, view it as vocational training.
It would be nice to see the day where the separation is more pronounced. Some people should have the option of techinical school, others university, and there really should not be too many comparisons made between the two.
Then, there is the "stepping stone" or "checkbox" mindset. For these people, a degree is just a way to get hired or move along in their careers, without really gaining any work-related skills along the way. This is the type of degree that I find to be the least practical from a societal standpoint. Why employers want people with degrees, when the degrees really have nothing to do with the job, and when a bad interview negates the highest degree anyway?
Right now I have an Associate of Arts in Liberal Arts. All that really means to anyone is that I have 60 assorted college credits. Better than a HS diploma, sure, but it doesn't really say much about my qualifications to do or be anything. Oh, and about half of my credit came from my senior year in HS anyway, so it is not like my AA even demonstrates that I am more educated than I was on the day I received my HS diploma. You'd have to meet me to know how much (or little) I take my education into my own hands. You'd have to meet me to know for sure whether I have stronger or weaker reasoning skills, reading comprehension and knowledge than anyone with either a Ph.D or an 8th grade education.
In this sense, a degree really isn't a practical way of measuring anything about a person.
Diploma 'arms race' - toddsbiyj - 01-17-2011
I will say that a "degree" is simply a piece of paper. Don't get me wrong, There is some definite benefit from some of the courses offered in a degree program. I for one am attempting to obtain a "piece of paper" so that I may obtain a career postion that I want. I have 20 years experience in one field and 11 years in another and without a "piece of paper" I will not move to the next level. There are many other younger & less experieneced persons obtaining these positions because of their "piece of paper".
Don't get me wrong in thinking that I think that a college education is useless. In some situations it is totally needed, but others it is just a paper trail. I agree that we have gone astray from experience/qualification versus "piece of paper" for the job. I look at my degree plan and think, wow this is a total waste of time for furthing my qualifications for doing my job but without the degree I will never even have the chance to get the interviews I desire.
So in conclusion, I have very mixed feelings about the whole "college level of training" situation that I have witnessed developing in todays workplace.
Just one persons opinion.
Diploma 'arms race' - skybirds - 01-17-2011
A lot of good beneficial courses aren't regionally
accredited or ACE endorsed. I tried the trades but
the type of people I had to work with were hostile
and uncivilized. Brick and morter schools are a rat
race of survival . Either
you sink or swim. Sink you loose a lot of money
and time. You can't afford to fail. I agree with some
posters that requiring a degree is often nonsensical.
The down time of getting into debt and taking time off
for 4 years to prove you can do something is absurd.
Why not just attach a hundred dollar note to your resume
instead of getting into debt. I love learning. The flexibility
of Excelsior and a few others gives a person a chance
of learning at a cost they can afford at a pace that is
reasonable. A lot of talented people are side lined because
they don't have a degree. This is ironical. The US is a
country that is rooted in individual achievement and
recognition. We have become mired in methodology
not welcome to ideas outside the box. Perhaps a time
will come when employers will see that a degree often
only reflects the ability to pass classes. A lot of talented
people are shred by the academic system and its quotas
They were talented but didn't have the skills to master
the poorly delivered lectures punishing exams and
distractions at college. The experience college offers
can be easily obtained outside school.
academia has become a scam.
Diploma 'arms race' - Popcorn - 01-18-2011
Interesting discussion...
For me, the lack of a 4 year college degree has always been the glass ceiling. The dividing point. I had some college, but not enough, and have seen many opportunities slide by, and watched someone else get the brass ring.
Whether we jump thru the hoops for ourselves, or someone else, here we all are, for our own reasons. We are actively improving our options. I really appreciate this opportunity and flexible schedule.
We've all seen the show where someone "got accepted" into a college, like it is a club for members only.
A friend was accepted in a "good" college, and after giving the $11,000 scholarship to the college, had to pay $1,000 for books. She failed one class, and is taking it again, saying the instructor was the reason. She went to another cheaper school, and there in the new class was the same instructor. (;^))
I tried to tell her about the value of cleps and testing out, and gave her this website. Her response was she really wanted to Learn her subjects.....ha. My response was when I am studying for a test, I study much more than I did in college because I don't have the instructor to provide me the information.
Now we have high school kids receiving 2 years of college credits by the time they graduate, and a lot of their non-college educated parents are not able to find a job. Who will the employer hire, between the two? Kids can accept less wages, and will pay a longer lifetime of taxes at higher wage. Is the bottom line all about the money, or enrichment, or both? Maybe that depends on each of us.
Regards,
Popcorn