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+--- Thread: Gov. Shutdown? (/Thread-Gov-Shutdown)
Gov. Shutdown? - Jonathan Whatley - 10-17-2013
jmeitrem Wrote:The Golden Rule can only go so far in regards to morality. During the fight for gay marriage last year everyone kept saying that if you love each other, why shouldn’t you be able to get married? That seemed hard to refute without bringing up religion.Many, major churches, synagogues, etc. support same-sex marriage; for years they petitioned the government to be able to perform them. Take the church near me, for instance, with a rainbow flag on a sign about welcoming all, which rents space in its basement to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. It's an American Baptist church founded in 1844. Old Cambridge Baptist Church.
I don't like the government stepping down on a single winning side in the religious disagreements between these on the one hand and the churches, synagogues, etc. – also many and major – who oppose same-sex marriage on the other. There are also honest dissidents from their congregations' positions within congregations on each side.
I think the good answer consistent with basic rights is for government to stand out of religion's way and allow congregations whose faiths guide them to perform same-sex marriages to perform them, while guaranteeing that congregations whose faiths guide them not to perform same-sex marriages will never be made to. Civil marriage officiants like city clerks shouldn't require any religious-based test.
Are there small religious groups who would perform marriages clearly objectionable to obvious ethical rules and to most people in our culture, you and I included, such as child marriages? Yes. This isn't an argument against same-sex marriage. It isn't about same-sex marriage. It's a subject-changer to something else.
More like this: Equal Marriage (me and others on degreediscussion.com, thread started November 16, 2008)
Gov. Shutdown? - Tedium - 10-17-2013
sanantone Wrote:Children cannot consent; that is how gay marriage is different from pedophilia. In theory, I don't see anything wrong with polygamy. Many religions have long accepted polygamy. The problem with polygamy is actually the religious component that's usually involved. Women (or girls) are often pressured by their families and religious communities to enter polygamous marriages or face excommunication and ostracism. With incest, the concern is the increased chance of genetic abnormalities; although, it's been debated whether the increases are significant.
That echoes exactly what my arguments against incest and pedophilia would be. Those two things are in no way similar to gay marriage.
Gov. Shutdown? - sanantone - 10-17-2013
I'm not even sure I can come up with a period in U.S. history where people were ultra-religious and things were great. Maybe some periods were great for most white people, but they certainly weren't great for everyone else. The Bible was even used to justify race-based slavery and segregation. During these religious periods, people weren't very godly.
An institution of slavery based on dehumanizing a whole race of people: ungodly.
The fact that most African Americans are mixed with Caucasian due to widespread extramarital relationships and rape: ungodly.
Jim Crow laws that denied millions of people their rights: ungodly.
Beating, jailing, and lynching people who dared to exercise or fight for their rights: ungodly.
The "No Mexicans" signs Texas businesses used to put up: ungodly.
The genocide committed against Native Americans: ungodly.
UptonSinclair brought up how the U.S. used to bring in revenues by charging tariffs. Maybe we need to go back to charging taxes on imports. Some of the most unpatriotic people/entities are the businesses that are shipping our jobs overseas to countries with little regulation. If you think little regulation is good, tell that to the families of the poor workers in Bangladesh who were crushed in a factory collapse.
Another thing the U.S. should do is increase the dividends tax. The stock market is doing great right now, but this isn't trickling down to everyone else. Investors in the top 1% should not be paying a lower tax rate than those in the bottom 99%.
Gov. Shutdown? - Jonathan Whatley - 10-17-2013
sanantone Wrote:I'm not even sure I can come up with a period in U.S. history where people were ultra-religious and things were great. Maybe some periods were great for most white people, but they certainly weren't great for everyone else. The Bible was even used to justify race-based slavery and segregation. During these religious periods, people weren't very godly.
An institution of slavery based on dehumanizing a whole race of people: ungodly.
The fact that most African Americans are mixed with Caucasian due to widespread extramarital relationships and rape: ungodly.
Jim Crow laws that denied millions of people their rights: ungodly.
Beating, jailing, and lynching people who dared to exercise or fight for their rights: ungodly.
The "No Mexicans" signs Texas businesses used to put up: ungodly.
The genocide committed against Native Americans: ungodly.
Testify.
I think it's also worth remembering here that forces fighting hard against every one of these injustices have drawn great strength from religion: The Underground Railroad, abolitionism, the Civil Rights movement. The sanctuary movement. Indigenous rights movements.
sanantone Wrote:UptonSinclair brought up how the U.S. used to bring in revenues by charging tariffs. Maybe we need to go back to charging taxes on imports. Some of the most unpatriotic people/entities are the businesses that are shipping our jobs overseas to countries with little regulation. If you think little regulation is good, tell that to the families of the poor workers in Bangladesh who were crushed in a factory collapse.
Another thing the U.S. should do is increase the dividends tax. The stock market is doing great right now, but this isn't trickling down to everyone else. Investors in the top 1% should not be paying a lower tax rate than those in the bottom 99%.
I'm sympathetic to a luxury tax, or an income tax with deductions for savings and investment. About the first taxes I'd move away from would be payroll taxes. I like payrolls. We could use some more.
Gov. Shutdown? - sanantone - 10-17-2013
Tedium Wrote:That echoes exactly what my arguments against incest and pedophilia would be. Those two things are in no way similar to gay marriage.
If someone wants to compare homosexuality to bestiality, which often happens, animals can't consent either.
Gov. Shutdown? - ncpenn - 10-17-2013
sanantone Wrote:If someone wants to compare homosexuality to bestiality, which often happens, animals can't consent either.
Actually, that's missing the issue. Consent isn't the issue. Ultimately, what I deem to be okay (without necessary regard for anyone else) is the issue apart from an absolute standard. Setting up consent is attempting to set up something that is imposed on others without grounds if it isn't an absolute standard.
Reason is, if it isn't absolute, who can truly define which subset it should apply to? To be honest, no one.
Also, explaining how religious/Christian people have done terrible things is no counter argument to religion or Christianity. If it were, then all the terrible things done by non-religious people would be an equally valid argument against an absence of religion.
Gov. Shutdown? - mrs.b - 10-17-2013
This conversation has gone full circle, starting with politics, then religion, then lifestyle choice... Congratulations, I'm in awe!
To return you to the original topic, I have the following underreported tidbit to share:
Republicans Give In Right Before Obamacare Would Have Been Repealed | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Gov. Shutdown? - sanantone - 10-17-2013
ncpenn Wrote:Actually, that's missing the issue. Consent isn't the issue. Ultimately, what I deem to be okay (without necessary regard for anyone else) is the issue apart from an absolute standard. Setting up consent is attempting to set up something that is imposed on others without grounds if it isn't an absolute standard.
Reason is, if it isn't absolute, who can truly define which subset it should apply to? To be honest, no one.
It's about the freedom to live your life as you choose. As long as you aren't imposing your will upon someone else or negatively affecting someone else, you should be able to live life as you choose. There are already a lot of gay couples and you still live your life. How will them getting married negatively affect your marriage? This is about respecting people's religious freedoms and freedom to pursue happiness. When someone can't consent, that person is having someone else's will imposed upon them. When people make it so that consenting adults can't do something because of their personal religious beliefs, they are imposing their will upon those people. Consent is not an arbitrary guideline; making laws by the people's religious beliefs (which differ even within religions) is arbitrary. Besides, people's attitudes change with the times. Same-sex marriage has already gained a lot of support in the U.S. It is scientific fact that children do not have fully developed brains, thus, the reasoning skills and intelligence to make good decisions on their own. It is scientific fact that the smartest animals only have the intelligence of a 4 year old human.
Quote:Also, explaining how religious/Christian people have done terrible things is no counter argument to religion or Christianity. If it were, then all the terrible things done by non-religious people would be an equally valid argument against an absence of religion.
It's not an argument against religion; it's an argument against how religion somehow makes everything better. It does not. It has often made things worse e.g. religious wars, persecuting scientists who disagree with the church, and witch hunting. Humans are going to be cruel regardless. As a black person, if I had to choose pre-1964 America vs. post-1964 America, post-1964 America would win hands down. It makes me raise an eyebrow when people say that we were kinder to our neighbors when we had God more in our lives and schools when Americans were absolutely brutal to each other. It disturbs me to read how people so easily forget the oppression of minorities and women as if it didn't matter.
Gov. Shutdown? - UptonSinclair - 10-17-2013
I have been pondering this idea of absolute truth, and I find it a bit puzzling. You see, in my 30s I made a major change in my religious beliefs and became a Mennonite. Most of my protestant friends accused me of taking the Bible too literally. Here are just a few examples of the lack of absolutes in the beliefs of most Christians....
Do not resist an evil person - Unless they are going to rob or harm you or your family
Don't get divorced - Unless you just can't get along
Feed the hungry - Unless they are that way because of bad decisions
Don't lie - Unless the consequences of telling the truth are worse than not. (Nazi asks if you are hiding Jews)
The love of money is evil, but rich people deserve what they have
There were no footnotes to the Sermon on the Mount, but Christians have been adding them since Jesus spoke the words.
Gov. Shutdown? - Jonathan Whatley - 10-17-2013
ncpenn Wrote:Actually, that's missing the issue. Consent isn't the issue. Ultimately, what I deem to be okay (without necessary regard for anyone else) is the issue apart from an absolute standard.
Should government should limit the civil rights of others based on what what you deem to be okay?
On whether marriage is a civil right, try to imagine the right to marry denied to any demographic group of female-male couples who have it today.