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Open Book Exam Courses - rickyjo - 08-08-2010
Well, you can look up the answer to anything--sometimes in a round-a-bout way--it doesn't have to be on a cheat website or Y!A, that objection would invalidate all online or at home studying. So in the end, only the proctored exam would be valid. My concern is that taken to its length, your objection could ultimately be taken much further than a single proctored exam.
Open Book Exam Courses - sirjake - 08-08-2010
Sunshine Wrote:Will you be submitting your Straighterline transcript for credit?
I'll answer this and the FEMA one together:
FEMA: Yes. I needed 120 credits for my degree, ended up with 123 on my transcript and had four FEMA credits. At the time I looked at it as, "Hey, I don't think this is worth college credit, but if they say it is..." Would I use them now? I'm not sure. It is still allowed, so while I would definitely NOT be agitating for more allowance of similar credit, I don't think it's unethical to use something that you would/do argue against because it is still acceptable (assuming it's not immoral or otherwise harmful to you). I don't see it as immoral, for sure, so the question would be: is this harmful to my degree for me to use it right now while it accepted while hoping that it one day is ruled unacceptable? I don't see that as being problematic. That's a typical consistent stance that Libertarians take toward things like rent control. I don't believe that rent control is right. I believe that landlords should be able to charge whatever rent they want. But it would not be wrong for me to live in a rent controlled apartment since that currently IS what's accepted. What would be unethical, in this line of thinking, would be to agitate for rent control in a particular area.
I think an analogy that might be helpful would be an obstacle course in the military. Let's say that it used to be very difficult, weeded slackers out, etc., but in recent years, they decided to make it kinder and gentler. You still have to pass it under a certain time, but it's way easier and it is scored. The old course still exists and you can even take the test on it if you want, but you're held to the same time scores. I think it would be perfectly acceptable for a soldier to lobby to get back the more difficult course as the standard, practice on the more difficult course so that he's actually trained, but then pass the test on the easy course. The easy course is currently the standard even though he thinks the standard is lax.
Now, that brings us to Straighterline. I've passed two of their courses. I did not cheat in either of them (I even answered a question incorrectly on purpose one time when I realized that I had seen the correct answer on a site that was used for cheating). Do I think they are worth college credit? Well, no. They lack proper verification of learning and are too easy to fake/cheat. But, they are currently accepted, and I personally did not cheat. It would thus not be unethical or inconsistent for me to get credit for those courses while at the same time writing my alma mater asking them to discontinue allowing these courses going forward for the reputation and good of our degrees.
THAT SAID: I am not sure what I will do about this. Right now, I'm thinking that I'll just take the CLEP for Financial Accounting, since that's readily available and has no suspicion. For MA, perhaps I'll take a CC course or try out Penn Foster. Of course, that would mean that my $140 I've invested already, not to mention the opportunity costs, would be a total loss in addition to whatever else I would have to pay.
Honestly, though, if TESC were to announce tomorrow that they no longer accept SL credit unless it's already been transferred there, I would applaud them, even though that would guarantee that I would have to do something else for two courses I've already completed.
Open Book Exam Courses - irnbru - 08-08-2010
Hi sirjake,
I've been thinking about your original post since it first went up. The issues regarding PF and EC's courses have been dealt with by others and, I think, put to bed.
The topic of open book testing in general has also been addressed.
Which leaves us returning to look at the non-proctored courses available online, such as FEMA and Straighterline.
Any course which requires the submission of written work is open to potential plagiarism abuse. This applies to the complete spectrum of submission, from high school essays to master's and doctorate theses. There is no difference in this respect between scheduled courses taken at a bricks and mortar institution or through distance-learning.
For this reason, courses such as Straighterline's English Composition or Brigham Young University's Public Speaking (submission of recorded speeches) are traditional and accepted.
I don't have and will never have any experience with FEMA so can't comment.
Having just completed Straighterline's Macroeconomics course, I understand your position. However, while the source of the assessment material is a primary provider for educational institutions worldwide and thus freely available, there are several mitigating factors.
Firstly, if every other university uses this material, that automatically guarantees syllabus acceptance.
Secondly, and I think this is key, Straighterline utilises a format of continuous assessment. There are 19 graded exams of 40 questions, plus two additional exams of 60 questions, all of which are timed. Relative to other courses, this is a vast amount of graded material.
Consequently, while it might be possible to have someone else use an account to answer the questions on behalf of someone else, this would be highly impractical. I think that in terms of the work required, this is at least equivalent to having someone else write an essay or paper for submission but vastly more involved and thus difficult to achieve.
In addition, while an individual may sit using google or the recommended text to research answers, such activity is not identical to doing so in a CLEP test. Remember, a CLEP test might take 90 minutes. From my own experience, I took approximately 40 minutes to work through each graded test. And there are a lot of tests.
What this means, is that a student is consistently involved in working through the syllabus material. This is a good definition of continuous assessment. I believe this is probably one of the strongest reasons why this format of assessment was approved by ACE for credit recommendation.
Again, while this method is open to certain kinds of abuse, the approach taken is such that it is clearly a risk which is manageable by both ACE and colleges.
Open Book Exam Courses - sirjake - 08-08-2010
irnbru Wrote:Hi sirjake,
I've been thinking about your original post since it first went up. The issues regarding PF and EC's courses have been dealt with by others and, I think, put to bed.
The topic of open book testing in general has also been addressed.
Which leaves us returning to look at the non-proctored courses available online, such as FEMA and Straighterline.
Any course which requires the submission of written work is open to potential plagiarism abuse. This applies to the complete spectrum of submission, from high school essays to master's and doctorate theses. There is no difference in this respect between scheduled courses taken at a bricks and mortar institution or through distance-learning.
For this reason, courses such as Straighterline's English Composition or Brigham Young University's Public Speaking (submission of recorded speeches) are traditional and accepted.
I don't have and will never have any experience with FEMA so can't comment.
Having just completed Straighterline's Macroeconomics course, I understand your position. However, while the source of the assessment material is a primary provider for educational institutions worldwide and thus freely available, there are several mitigating factors.
Firstly, if every other university uses this material, that automatically guaratees its acceptance.
Secondly, and I think this is key, Straighterline utilises a format of continuous assessment. There are 19 graded exams of 40 questions, plus two additional exams of 60 questions, all of which are timed. Relative to other courses, this is a vast amount of graded material.
Consequently, while it might be possible to have someone else use an account to answer the questions on behalf of someone else, this would be highly impractical. I think that in terms of the work required, this is at least equivalent to having someone else write an essay or paper for submission but vastly more involved and thus difficult to achieve.
In addition, while an individual may sit using google or the recommended text to research answers, such activity is not identical to doing so in a CLEP test. Remember, a CLEP test might take 90 minutes. From my own experience, I took approximately 40 minutes to work through each graded test. And there are a lot of tests.
What this means, is that a student is consistently involved in working through the syllabus material. This is a good definition of continuous assessment. I believe this is probably one of the strongest reasons why this format of testing was approved by ACE for credit recommendation.
Again, while this method is open to certain kinds of abuse, the approach taken is such that it is clearly a risk which is manageable by both ACE and colleges.
I simply don't agree. The ability to look up virtually every answer on every quiz question on the ACC 2 course I took meant that you only really had to worry about the exams. On the exams, you had 3 hours for 30-32 questions. Many, if not most (again, I wasn't trying to verify this since I wasn't interested in cheating) could be answered by a quick highlighting of the text of the question, then right clicking on that and doing a Google search (a built in feature of Firefox). You were then taken to Google's listing where frequently the first result was a Yahoo answer or the actual test from another college or something of that nature. In this format, I just don't see how Straighterline can combat that.
Open Book Exam Courses - skyfall123 - 08-08-2010
Quote:THAT SAID: I am not sure what I will do about this.
Here's a suggestion....I'm sorry everyone for starting such a volatile thread without properly researching my assumptions. I am also sorry for thinking so highly of myself that I would suggest that the whole education system conform to my specific standards.
Open Book Exam Courses - skyfall123 - 08-08-2010
Quote:In this format, I just don't see how Straighterline can combat that.
If I tell you how, will you please stop? Straighterline has computerized test banks for all of those courses, which are full of thousands of questions. Ask SL to add to their current bank of questions for the particular courses that you took. Doable ? Yes.
Open Book Exam Courses - sirjake - 08-08-2010
Geezer Wrote:If I tell you how, will you please stop? Straighterline has computerized test banks for all of those courses, which are full of thousands of questions. Ask SL to add to their current bank of questions for the particular courses that you took. Doable ? Yes.As to this suggestion: sure, that'd be better than what they've currently got. I mean seriously, do you really think that what Straighterline is currently doing is legitimate? I was talking about this issue with family and honestly they were flabbergasted that anyone with an "online" degree would disagree with me about this. We are the ones who should be up in arms about it. Which was my original point.
And yes, I will stop. I don't have time to go on with this forever. I generally hate online arguments. Ask my wife. I can't stand them and almost never engage in them. But my [our] interests were at stake and I thought it worth my time and effort to say something about it (albeit imperfectly). Check my previous history. I'm not a rabble-rouser who just picks fights. I shouldn't have said "bring it," and should have written in a more circumspect manner. I was aiming at cheaters and slackers who want the lowest possible standard, but I should have been more clear. I apologize. Honestly. Would you please forgive me? I wasn't looking to irritate people who work hard to earn their degrees.
I'll send my own letter to my college and ACE and be done with it. If anyone else agrees, do the same. I don't think Straighterline in its current form and comparable courses deserve to qualify as college credit. I think it endangers our degrees. I'm not backing down about that because I think it's the truth.
I'm done.
Jake
Open Book Exam Courses - skyfall123 - 08-08-2010
Jake I apologize for jumping on you...
I would venture to guess that very, very, very few people on this board try and cheat....and if they do, I doubt they stay long. There are easier ways to earn credit if you are a cheater, then going through this marathon.
People here are earning degrees from TESC, Excelsior, etc...not FEMA or Straighterline. The amount of credit that anyone would even earn from FEMA or SL is minimal. Your 4 FEMA credits is probably par for the course when all is said and done. Everyone gets excited when they find the board because the can get credit for FEMA, but what percentage actually use it ? In many cases, the same goes for ACE Credit, you fill in here and there. They are filler courses.
The majority of people earning their degrees and certainly their majors earn those from upper level courses and tests either taken at TESC, Excelsior or other RA schools...especially now that there is a 30 credit upper level minimum.
I also apologize for starting the SL accounting thread that refers to the online resources. I thought it would be short lived, but it has taken on a life of its own. It was out of character and beneath this forum and I shouldn't have posted it. My mistake.
On a lighter note, Adams State has a laundry list of independent study business courses that may provide a better alternative for you than PF Distance Learning, Business Courses, Extended Studies, Adams State College
Open Book Exam Courses - TMW2010 - 08-08-2010
As to SL...
Obviously there is some merit to what they're doing and how they do things behind the scenes. Otherwise ACE or their partner schools (especially the ones that are Regionally Accredited) wouldn't have any involvement with them.
Its lower level credit... Lower level credit will only get one so far in the realm of education. Unless you're planning on accumulating 5-10 associates degrees, I'm not sure why this would have such an impact. Now that the Big 3 are requiring larger amounts of Upper level credit for their undergrad degrees, it makes it even less of an issue.
If it were UL credit or (shudder to think) grad-level credit, that would be something wholly different.
Besides, someone who cheats or skims their way through the lower stuff will be easy to spot if they ever have to deal with the actual subject matter for work or even advanced studies. This is true of any format of learning.
They're only short changing themselves by not actually learning the material.
*edit* Bah, Geezer beat me to saying most of this.
Open Book Exam Courses - peace123 - 08-08-2010
sirjake Wrote:Sorry to drop of the face of the discussion. After work from 7am-3:30pm yesterday, I was at a wedding till almost 10, then church this morning.
That is a full schedule. I do hope the wedding was beautiful and that church was both inspiring and uplifting.
Peace123