(01-05-2017, 10:22 AM)Slobodon Wrote: After considering myriad options - and needing to distance - I'll start NWCU on Jan. 23

(01-05-2017, 10:28 AM)jsd Wrote:

Slobodon Wrote:After considering myriad options - and needing to distance - I'll start NWCU on Jan. 23

Out of curiosity, what do you plan on doing with this degree?

(01-05-2017, 04:10 PM)jsd Wrote: And you can only sit for the bar in California, known for being one of the hardest states to pass. And you can't just transfer it to another state.

And on top of that, your figures are very generous. For all Bar takers who attempted the CA Bar after going to one of these CA unaccredited schools, only 12.5% passed in the most recent stats available (July 2016) (source: http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/Statistics/JULY2016STATS120716_R.pdf)

As far as the baby bar, only 18.2% people passed in the most recent (June 2016) (source: http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/Statistics/June2016fylxstats121216_R.pdf)

There's really no reason to go to any of these schools. Even if you managed to pass the baby bar and bar exam and move to california, you're not going to get a decent job in the field. People from traditional ABA law schools with lower ranking cant even get decent law jobs.

edit to add this quick rundown I did of the success rate of these programs from a previous thread, based on the passage rates a year or so ago (20% baby bar, 11% bar, 90% first-year drop out rate)

jsd Wrote:let's say 1,000 students are in your cohort... 90% drop out within the first year, so we're already down to 100 students. Only 20% of those pass the baby bar, so 20 left. 11% of those will pass the real bar, or 2.2

It's POSSIBLE you'll be one of those odd 2-3 people who made it. But it's entirely improbable, no matter how ambitious, smart, and driven you are. a 0.22% chance.

And look at the opportunity cost... what could you have been putting all of that effort into for 1-4  years had you not gone? A graduate degree that meant more tangible success perhaps?.

(01-05-2017, 04:26 PM)creditmonsoon Wrote:

dcan Wrote:I know this is tangential to the normal "Big 3" discussions here, but this is in keeping with the "insanely low prices if you can put in the work" approach. This is a long post, I apologize, but I wanted to try and capture what I do know (not a whole lot, but enough) about these schools.

This is not an advertisement, just passing this fascinating find along.

Bottom line: I think I've found the "CLEP Law School."  15 classes, $100/class, at your own pace, using top-notch texts. You will NOT practice law though unless you find a loophole, which people here love to find.

So I've been looking around at all these "online law schools" and a few things stand out. First, none of them are accredited by the American Bar Association, which essentially guarantees you won't actually practice law. The one exception is California, which most of these online JD degrees are geared towards and which are state-accredited by the California state bar. However, California requires all state-accredited school students to take the First Year Law Students Exam at the end of year one. Failure to pass the exam means you are thrown out of the JD program. Here's a good overview of the California approach & different types of law school.

That seems like a lot to go through for someone who just wants to learn the law but doesn't plan to practice. Of course, if you just want to learn the law you can get a master's in legal studies in two years. American Military University has them for under $12,000.

However, there is a third option, that grants a full Juris Doctor degree, but by design does not prepare you for any bar exam, and is not accredited, at all. That said, there are some cases where a degree like this can make sense. Think law enforcement, government work, advanced contract knowledge, etc.

It's at Mid-Atlantic School of Law. Horrible website, but some decent reviews, including this one by a current student who works at an attorney's office. The school is apparently valid enough for him to already have his "third-year practice certificate" in the state of Virginia, meaning he can represent in court as long as there is a licensed attorney there for supervision. Plus, at least in Virginia you can get this cheap degree, then do 26 hours in a "real" law school (roughly one year of classes), and sit for the bar. What a loophole.

Tuition is paid in arrears. (seriously) You take 15 "modules" (classes) -- 12 core and 3 electives -- and then you get a JD degree. And classes are at your own pace. So apparently you enroll in the course, study, take the test, then pay and get credit and move on. This sounds very similar to places like WGU, NCU, etc.

The class textbooks are Gilbert's Outlines, available for about $35 each brand new at Amazon. "Outlines" are used by "real" law students to study for the bar exam. So basically you would be reading what law students read to pass the bar. Kind of like reading much bigger REA books. The book on property has stellar reviews on Amazon as it is essentially the study guide written by the author of the property law book used in 90% of law schools. The others are presumably also high quality, since they are designed to help pass the bar exam.

If you want to practice law quickly the student manual itself advises at the beginning that you should look at a traditional B&M route, or alternately go through an online school designed to get you through the California bar. However, if you want to learn the law for personal or professional enhancement (without actually practicing law directly) then this may well be a useful route. Here is an excellent discussion (on "the other board") about the pros and cons of a non-bar JD. Many people are against it, but there can be some cases where it makes sense.

Besides, $1,500 for a law degree at your own pace is rather a ridiculous deal for the people around here.

hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?

(01-05-2017, 04:44 PM)jsd Wrote:

creditmonsoon Wrote:hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?

No, you will not be able to sit for the bar outside of CA with one of these JDs.

(01-05-2017, 07:33 PM)dfrecore Wrote:

creditmonsoon Wrote:hmm. Would receiving a JD allow me to one day be able to have a "foot in the door" if I choose to finish up with a bar exam in my state, or do I run the chance of my JD being seen as nothing but a diploma from a diploma mill? That's my only concern. Is it legit?

This is legit, not a diploma mill.  But it won't help you in other states, since it's specifically for CA.  Other states may have their own policies though, for online JD's.  Who knows.

(01-06-2017, 12:15 PM)dmjacobsen Wrote: What manner of sorcery resurrected this 5-year-old post?

(01-06-2017, 01:06 PM)dfrecore Wrote:

dmjacobsen Wrote:What manner of sorcery resurrected this 5-year-old post?

I always wonder about the zombie threads myself.  People must search on a key word, and old stuff pops up.  They don't see the date, post a comment, and voila, it's back!

(01-06-2017, 01:29 PM)KayV Wrote: Late night spammers resurrect zombie threads, the spam is removed, and someone posts a comment without noticing the date.

(01-06-2017, 05:35 PM)jsd Wrote: I don't know, it kind of makes sense. the first reply that Slobodon made ("...........") had the subject like of " 'white shoe' law firm is the stock phrase" as if he/she was replying to a spam post, that we don't see anymore. KayV might be on to something.

(02-08-2019, 12:31 PM)Ideas Wrote: Good luck on the baby bar!

Your plan to study for 2 more years, work 20 months under supervision, and take the bar?

(02-08-2019, 12:35 PM)jsd Wrote: FYI, California also allows a "reading the law" apprenticeship to qualify to sit for the bar. But something like only 4 people had ever done it at the point I last looked a couple years ago. Any idea how common it is in VA?

By the way, none of those 7 states with lower admission requirements will take the Cal-Bar school on it's own for sitting for the bar. They'll require other things (like the VA apprenticeship which could be done without the CA school, though I guess the CA school might make it easier). 0 state bars currently have reciprocity with California. Not too long ago after a court battle, one state bar gave a distinguished lawyer reciprocity in a specific state (I want to say MI, but this was a few years back and my memory is hazy), but they made it clear they were not setting this as the standard and going forward they would continue to deny reciprocity and CalBar schools as matter of policy.

You could work in federal courts after passing the California Bar, though!

(02-09-2019, 10:13 AM)jsd Wrote: Don't forget that the first year dropout rates of those non-ABA schools are a whopping 90%. So the actual bar pass rate is something around 0.22% when you account for them (I did the numbers a few years back in this thread above). Slobodon has passed this benchmark, though, at least.

(02-09-2019, 10:13 AM)jsd Wrote: Don't forget that the first year dropout rates of those non-ABA schools are a whopping 90%. So the actual bar pass rate is something around 0.22% when you account for them (I did the numbers a few years back in this thread above). Slobodon has passed this benchmark, though, at least.