peace123 Wrote:How do locks keep honest people honest ? The way I see it locks are locked to keep dishonest people out of your home ? Locks are locked because of fear, fear someone will take what is yours or fear of being harmed etc.. To me it is just an inconvenience to the honest person to have to lock their doors.

In your replies I see this same fear, in regards to the future worth of your degree.

Personally, I give little thought to such things as I do not want to live my life out of a sense of fear. Nor do I want my life to be dictated by the actions of cheaters or slackers.

sirjake Wrote:"Locks keep honest people honest" is a common adage. Do a Google search if you don't believe me.

To reiterate, I am in FAVOR of locks. I'm saying that people cannot be trusted to the extent that these exams are trusting people. If you're cool with leaving your doors unlocked with valuables present all the time because you believe in the inherent goodness of man or something of that nature, so be it.

peace123 Wrote:Terry,

Thank you for clarifying this point. In my posting, I was speaking of the course exams, not ECE's. Indeed, the security for the ECE's is strong, thumb print, photo, etc...

peace123 Wrote:Terry,

Thank you for clarifying this point. In my posting, I was speaking of the course exams, not ECE's. Indeed, the security for the ECE's is strong, thumb print, photo, etc...

• The 5 non-CDROM classes all have the weekly dicussions, which are worth 20% of the grade. These discussions require inital posts of 125-250 words, and multiple responses of at least 100 words, all requiring thought, explanation, and citation of sources.
  
• One of the classes I'm taking has modular multiple choice quizzes, that are all timed & open book. And worded so that you wanted to make sure you read the material so you subtle differences between the answers. The Midterm and final for this class will also have 50 multiple choice questions (timed), in additional to 3-5 'short answer' questions that will require 250-500 words each with citation.
  
• The Midterm and final of my other classes consist of anywhere between 6-10 short answer and 2-5 essay questions. My Criminology class final was estimated by the professor to be around 11-13 pages in length when completed . When I turned mine in, it was 27 pages.
  
• One of the classes I'm currently taking has two 'quizzes', one was in Module 2 and the other will be in module 6. The one in module two consisted of 9 short answer questions which required citations (which ended up being an average of 300 words per question for me). I assume the module 6 will be the same.
  
• Each of my classes (both CD-ROM & online) require at least 2 projects consisting of papers that are between 2-10 pages of work each.
  
• All projects, essays, and short answers are checked via TurnItIn to make sure there's no plagiarism and copy/paste of answers from some of these web sites.
  

sirjake Wrote:But why do they do this? From your point of view, it seems that they should offer these online with no proctor. Why shouldn't they? What is the fundamental difference?

sirjake Wrote:This might ruffle some feathers. I'm OK with that. Bring it.

The recent post about Penn Foster courses that fulfill TESC requirements really bothers me. My understanding is that these courses have no required proctored exams. They are all open-book exam courses. If I'm wrong on this, then this only applies to courses that ARE open book exam courses (Straighterline and FEMA, for example).

I think that every single one of us should write ACE, TESC, Excelsior, and COSC and request that they stop accepting *ANY* course that has zero proctored tests. I don't care that ACE "approves" it. Their approval means nothing to me when anyone with half a brain and a bit of honesty knows that this is ridiculous. If they want to be legit, they should *stop* approving them.

The truth is that the integrity of our degrees is at stake. In the real world, people know that students cannot be trusted. Accepting these credits flies in the face of that.

For example: I just finished a Straighterline course earlier this week. What a joke. Every quiz's answers were freely available in the textbook's resources online and many of the exam questions (if not all--I didn't check since I'm not interested in cheating) were available via a Google search from abused services like Cramster or Yahoo Answers. The above is exactly why these courses should not be allowed to count for "real" college credit.

This isn't counting the other collusion that does go on. You know, like a student on this forum sending me a message asking me if I would give him copies of my exams from a course I just took for one that he just took since we were soon to be taking the other's course--yes, that happened. No, I didn't go along with it. (The other member was IgnazSemmelweis. I have zero problem with ratting out cheaters. Again, bring it.)

Could you learn from these courses? Sure. Of course you could. That isn't the point. You can learn the information that you need to know to do virtually *ANYTHING* without a college course. Name one thing that you can't learn outside of a college classroom. Seriously. The point is that it's supposed to be a good faith verification that you've achieved some level of understanding. You simply are not getting that with open-book exams and time alone with an internet connection.

CLEP credit is looked upon with disdain by some. I understand that, but it is still a proctored exam. It's a good faith effort to limit cheating and make sure that a student actually knows a good portion of the material covered. Even if it's short-term memory, you still *must* know the information at some point. That simply is not the case with a course whose testing is made up of nothing but open-book exams.

We can't keep this a secret. Eventually, our degrees will just start being worth less (if not worthless). It doesn't take much. When people find out that a good portion of a degree can essentially be faked, it lowers its esteem in the public eye. We will start seeing requirements for positions or higher degrees that explicitly forbid "our" schools. I've already seen it once for one school: Excelsior nursing grads are not allowed in Illinois due to a type of testing they do. I could see the same happening for other applications: professional designation requirements (CPA, CFP, etc.), grad education (law school, med, etc), and even businesses. There is a reason why national accreditation isn't widely respected; I think that this is it, or at least a large part of it.

They won't care that you personally didn't cheat, did learn, etc. They'll care that you had ample opportunity to do so.

Write these schools. Express concern. We need to do something about this asap.

sirjake Wrote:For example: I just finished a Straighterline course earlier this week. What a joke. Every quiz's answers were freely available in the textbook's resources online and many of the exam questions (if not all--I didn't check since I'm not interested in cheating) were available via a Google search from abused services like Cramster or Yahoo Answers. The above is exactly why these courses should not be allowed to count for "real" college credit.

Quote:The recent post about Penn Foster courses that fulfill TESC requirements really bothers me. My understanding is that these courses have no required proctored exams. They are all open-book exam courses. If I'm wrong on this, then this only applies to courses that ARE open book exam courses (Straighterline and FEMA, for example).

I think that every single one of us should write ACE, TESC, Excelsior, and COSC and request that they stop accepting *ANY* course that has zero proctored tests. I don't care that ACE "approves" it. Their approval means nothing to me when anyone with half a brain and a bit of honesty knows that this is ridiculous. If they want to be legit, they should *stop* approving them.

The truth is that the integrity of our degrees is at stake. In the real world, people know that students cannot be trusted. Accepting these credits flies in the face of that.