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RE: HR Advice - burbuja0512 - 02-03-2019
Yikes. Ok I wasn't going to bring it up because I know it's not the case with my boss, who hired me. But I do suspect some sexism on a larger scale. In my group, there are female directors and senior directors, but it does seem to be a bit of a boy's club since only the guys have a VP title, even for the same type of position.
However, I try not to focus on this because I feel like I could be overly sensitive about it if I let myself. I'm going way off topic, but years ago there was a very large organization that didn't hire me for a Sales VP job and the headhunter told me confidentially that the all male executive team didn't feel like I was a "cultural fit." (meaning they wanted a man) She was frustrated and had to start the search over again, even though I was the perfect fit. I took the high road and decided to move on. But this experience did affect me pretty significantly.
I have a few other stories like the company where I was working as a "Team Lead" managing 15 people and 20+ million dollars worth of revenue while the male directors managed 3-4 people and under 5 million. No explanation. I just couldn't move up. Well.. there was the part where I wouldn't sleep with the VP, and I guess that might have hurt my chances. I just had to find a new job to move up, though I tried to do it on merit alone.
Sales is gross and dirty and based on our extensive travel, many guys feel like being away from home makes it play time. International sales makes domestic sales look like nuns in a convent. I get propositioned pretty regularly and have found ways to deal with it. In the case of my old VP, there wasn't a way around it. I got on the sh*t list.
But back to the issue at hand -and I only shared some of my experience to demonstrate that yes, I do see a ton of crap and I see it all the time. But, women in international sales are at a huge advantage when it comes to closing a deal in every part of the world - including the Middle East, at least from my experience. I've negotiated 6 and 7 figure deals with men in positions of power who wanted to work with me simply because they'd never met an American woman with blonde hair or because they feel more comfortable ceding their negotiation position with a woman because they look courteous, not weak. Yes it sounds shallow, but I'll take the advantages. It's a way to balance out the very clear disadvantages I have with my male peers. I let my numbers talk. It doesn't always work, but it's a step.
Anyway, I now have a great boss who is not sexist at all. The good ones are slowly replacing the sleazeballs in this field, I hope. I'm handling a lot of work and so far doing a great job. I do have the external title in writing and I've put reminders on the calendar in the future to follow-up. I don't know if this is the solution, but I think it's a good start.
Also, on one other side topic, I was talking to a friend about the title issue. It turns out that at her company EVERYONE except the C-suite has internal and external titles. The internal titles are broken down to just a few levels, contributor, manager, etc and the external titles are chosen by the department to what best suits their needs. I thought this was weird and I would hate it, but the purpose is to be agile if someone's responsibilities change suddenly. I wonder how they handle that sort of thing when job hunting. My friend wasn't sure since she's been there for 14 years.
RE: HR Advice - dfrecore - 02-03-2019
Like I said, I know that there is sexism and all of that where you are. I just don't think going in with a chip on your shoulder and accusing people of it is going to take you where you want to go.
And, I would also ask your boss/HR/higher ups - if I'm here doing the job, and need the title to get the job done, why in the world WOULDN'T you put me at a VP level? It honestly hurts the business to not have me as a VP. Why would you intentionally hamstring the company? Obviously you can be nicer than that, but it might give them something to think about.
Good luck and keep us posted!
RE: HR Advice - burbuja0512 - 02-03-2019
(02-03-2019, 01:25 PM)dfrecore Wrote: Like I said, I know that there is sexism and all of that where you are. I just don't think going in with a chip on your shoulder and accusing people of it is going to take you where you want to go.
And, I would also ask your boss/HR/higher ups - if I'm here doing the job, and need the title to get the job done, why in the world WOULDN'T you put me at a VP level? It honestly hurts the business to not have me as a VP. Why would you intentionally hamstring the company? Obviously you can be nicer than that, but it might give them something to think about.
Good luck and keep us posted!
I agree 100% dfrecore, and I purposely did not even bring up the woman card, and didn't mention it here either until it was brought up. There is strong discrimination against women in my field and there is no way around it,. I didn't want to believe it, but I've lived it too much. I have to find ways to live with it and use the advantages I have or it's just too rough to handle. I have found ways to succeed in spite of the issues I've encountered because I work twice as hard as most of my male peers. I'm ok with that - I work harder and get ahead. No chip. Just knowing that if I kick enough as$, I will win.
I hope that my work can help at least one other woman new to the field. I still do wholeheartedly recommend int'l sales as a career to anyone male or female who loves business, international culture, and wants to travel the world on someone else's dime. My daughter wants to go into int'l sales and I'm so excited for her. (But yes, I will teach her how to manage being propositioned frequently. It's just the reality when traveling with male colleagues or clients. Travel always brings out the worst in some men, but by no means all. Just a lot of sleazy sales types - even those in positions of power can be the same way)
I did ask the "why wouldn't you" question, so very good call. I perhaps could fight this for months or so and maybe get some traction, but I thought it wiser to get the title now and then bring it up again after I have a few major wins under my belt. I will keep these questions handy and revisit in 6 months or so. I will keep fighting this and have to pay attention to timing.
Thanks
RE: HR Advice - dfrecore - 02-03-2019
(02-03-2019, 04:15 PM)burbuja0512 Wrote: I agree 100% dfrecore, and I purposely did not even bring up the woman card, and didn't mention it here either until it was brought up. There is strong discrimination against women in my field and there is no way around it,. I didn't want to believe it, but I've lived it too much. I have to find ways to live with it and use the advantages I have or it's just too rough to handle. I have found ways to succeed in spite of the issues I've encountered because I work twice as hard as most of my male peers. I'm ok with that - I work harder and get ahead. No chip. Just knowing that if I kick enough as$, I will win.
I hope that my work can help at least one other woman new to the field. I still do wholeheartedly recommend int'l sales as a career to anyone male or female who loves business, international culture, and wants to travel the world on someone else's dime. My daughter wants to go into int'l sales and I'm so excited for her. (But yes, I will teach her how to manage being propositioned frequently. It's just the reality when traveling with male colleagues or clients. Travel always brings out the worst in some men, but by no means all. Just a lot of sleazy sales types - even those in positions of power can be the same way)
My husband is in IT sales, VERY few women in the business at all. He is an SE, so the technical half of a sales team. He previously worked with a female Salesperson, and they did very well together. She left the company a while ago, and then he left as well. This last year, when he was looking for a job again, he reached out to her (networking) and she hooked him up with a friend who is a female salesperson - the top salesperson in her company so is getting her own dedicated SE - and he's now working with her. I think the reason they both liked him was that he's happily married and no flirting or propositioning going on there. And, he's somewhat protective, and will never leave them alone with a client, especially in other countries. He keeps it very professional, respects their abilities, lets them do their job - but won't let other men take advantage if he can help it.
All this to say that I totally get where you're coming from. I know what it can be like for women in male-dominated cultures/companies/countries. But smart women figure out a way around the issues, rather than complaining about them! These women are smart and driven, and surround themselves with the right people to help make them successful. I'm sure you do the same.
RE: HR Advice - burbuja0512 - 02-04-2019
(02-03-2019, 05:04 PM)dfrecore Wrote:(02-03-2019, 04:15 PM)burbuja0512 Wrote: I agree 100% dfrecore, and I purposely did not even bring up the woman card, and didn't mention it here either until it was brought up. There is strong discrimination against women in my field and there is no way around it,. I didn't want to believe it, but I've lived it too much. I have to find ways to live with it and use the advantages I have or it's just too rough to handle. I have found ways to succeed in spite of the issues I've encountered because I work twice as hard as most of my male peers. I'm ok with that - I work harder and get ahead. No chip. Just knowing that if I kick enough as$, I will win.
I hope that my work can help at least one other woman new to the field. I still do wholeheartedly recommend int'l sales as a career to anyone male or female who loves business, international culture, and wants to travel the world on someone else's dime. My daughter wants to go into int'l sales and I'm so excited for her. (But yes, I will teach her how to manage being propositioned frequently. It's just the reality when traveling with male colleagues or clients. Travel always brings out the worst in some men, but by no means all. Just a lot of sleazy sales types - even those in positions of power can be the same way)
My husband is in IT sales, VERY few women in the business at all. He is an SE, so the technical half of a sales team. He previously worked with a female Salesperson, and they did very well together. She left the company a while ago, and then he left as well. This last year, when he was looking for a job again, he reached out to her (networking) and she hooked him up with a friend who is a female salesperson - the top salesperson in her company so is getting her own dedicated SE - and he's now working with her. I think the reason they both liked him was that he's happily married and no flirting or propositioning going on there. And, he's somewhat protective, and will never leave them alone with a client, especially in other countries. He keeps it very professional, respects their abilities, lets them do their job - but won't let other men take advantage if he can help it.
All this to say that I totally get where you're coming from. I know what it can be like for women in male-dominated cultures/companies/countries. But smart women figure out a way around the issues, rather than complaining about them! These women are smart and driven, and surround themselves with the right people to help make them successful. I'm sure you do the same.
This is exactly how it is most of the time and exactly how it should be. Professionals working with professionals. Male/female teams are often the best because in large deals you can team up and use your personalities to reach different people on the client team. The best teams I've been on have been mixed. When you're working with 6 and 7 figure deals, it's never one person, and the teams involved should be able to anticipate any issues.
I don't know if I totally agree about 'smart' women. As much as I'd like to say that this crap doesn't happen, I've seen it too much. I've lived it too much. I'm smart and while I have managed to get ahead in almost every situation, there will always be some jerk who is offended that you pretended not to notice his advances. I can't wait for the day that sales is free of this type of guy, and like I said, I do believe it's better now that it used to be. As I've mentioned previously, most of what I have seen has been on the road where slimeballs feel like they're not in a office setting and therefore anything goes. It's real. And I wouldn't blame any woman who falls into this situation for being smart. I would try to advise anyone going into outside (travel-based) sales to buckle up and have thick skin. And as you said, don't carry the chip because it will get you no where. Do your best and act as professional as possible at all times.
RE: HR Advice - dfrecore - 02-04-2019
(02-04-2019, 06:50 AM)burbuja0512 Wrote:(02-03-2019, 05:04 PM)dfrecore Wrote: My husband is in IT sales, VERY few women in the business at all. He is an SE, so the technical half of a sales team. He previously worked with a female Salesperson, and they did very well together. She left the company a while ago, and then he left as well. This last year, when he was looking for a job again, he reached out to her (networking) and she hooked him up with a friend who is a female salesperson - the top salesperson in her company so is getting her own dedicated SE - and he's now working with her. I think the reason they both liked him was that he's happily married and no flirting or propositioning going on there. And, he's somewhat protective, and will never leave them alone with a client, especially in other countries. He keeps it very professional, respects their abilities, lets them do their job - but won't let other men take advantage if he can help it.
All this to say that I totally get where you're coming from. I know what it can be like for women in male-dominated cultures/companies/countries. But smart women figure out a way around the issues, rather than complaining about them! These women are smart and driven, and surround themselves with the right people to help make them successful. I'm sure you do the same.
This is exactly how it is most of the time and exactly how it should be. Professionals working with professionals. Male/female teams are often the best because in large deals you can team up and use your personalities to reach different people on the client team. The best teams I've been on have been mixed. When you're working with 6 and 7 figure deals, it's never one person, and the teams involved should be able to anticipate any issues.
I don't know if I totally agree about 'smart' women. As much as I'd like to say that this crap doesn't happen, I've seen it too much. I've lived it too much. I'm smart and while I have managed to get ahead in almost every situation, there will always be some jerk who is offended that you pretended not to notice his advances. I can't wait for the day that sales is free of this type of guy, and like I said, I do believe it's better now that it used to be. As I've mentioned previously, most of what I have seen has been on the road where slimeballs feel like they're not in a office setting and therefore anything goes. It's real. And I wouldn't blame any woman who falls into this situation for being smart. I would try to advise anyone going into outside (travel-based) sales to buckle up and have thick skin. And as you said, don't carry the chip because it will get you no where. Do your best and act as professional as possible at all times.
What I meant by "smart women" was not that you can find the way around every situation, but that you get through the issues, rather than blaming discrimination for everything. Sometimes there is no way around something, and your best bet is to leave a company. That sucks, but men leave companies for varying reasons as well, including people above them blocking them from moving up the ladder as well. My husband works from home when he's not traveling; a guy in his company had some sort of issue with him and bad-mouthed him to higher ups, and my husband was completely unaware of what was going on and he wasn't in the office to be able to counteract any of it. He eventually had to leave that department just to get away from that guy. Still no idea what happened or why he was targeted. If he was a woman, it would have been very easy to claim discrimination, but obviously, that wasn't the problem - the guy was just a jackass, and who knows why it happened.
Again, not to say that sexism/racism/ism's in general don't exist, but that you can't let that stop you from doing what you want to do. You have to find a way to find the success you want in spite of it.
RE: HR Advice - burbuja0512 - 02-04-2019
(02-04-2019, 11:38 AM)dfrecore Wrote:(02-04-2019, 06:50 AM)burbuja0512 Wrote:(02-03-2019, 05:04 PM)dfrecore Wrote: My husband is in IT sales, VERY few women in the business at all. He is an SE, so the technical half of a sales team. He previously worked with a female Salesperson, and they did very well together. She left the company a while ago, and then he left as well. This last year, when he was looking for a job again, he reached out to her (networking) and she hooked him up with a friend who is a female salesperson - the top salesperson in her company so is getting her own dedicated SE - and he's now working with her. I think the reason they both liked him was that he's happily married and no flirting or propositioning going on there. And, he's somewhat protective, and will never leave them alone with a client, especially in other countries. He keeps it very professional, respects their abilities, lets them do their job - but won't let other men take advantage if he can help it.
All this to say that I totally get where you're coming from. I know what it can be like for women in male-dominated cultures/companies/countries. But smart women figure out a way around the issues, rather than complaining about them! These women are smart and driven, and surround themselves with the right people to help make them successful. I'm sure you do the same.
This is exactly how it is most of the time and exactly how it should be. Professionals working with professionals. Male/female teams are often the best because in large deals you can team up and use your personalities to reach different people on the client team. The best teams I've been on have been mixed. When you're working with 6 and 7 figure deals, it's never one person, and the teams involved should be able to anticipate any issues.
I don't know if I totally agree about 'smart' women. As much as I'd like to say that this crap doesn't happen, I've seen it too much. I've lived it too much. I'm smart and while I have managed to get ahead in almost every situation, there will always be some jerk who is offended that you pretended not to notice his advances. I can't wait for the day that sales is free of this type of guy, and like I said, I do believe it's better now that it used to be. As I've mentioned previously, most of what I have seen has been on the road where slimeballs feel like they're not in a office setting and therefore anything goes. It's real. And I wouldn't blame any woman who falls into this situation for being smart. I would try to advise anyone going into outside (travel-based) sales to buckle up and have thick skin. And as you said, don't carry the chip because it will get you no where. Do your best and act as professional as possible at all times.
What I meant by "smart women" was not that you can find the way around every situation, but that you get through the issues, rather than blaming discrimination for everything. Sometimes there is no way around something, and your best bet is to leave a company. That sucks, but men leave companies for varying reasons as well, including people above them blocking them from moving up the ladder as well. My husband works from home when he's not traveling; a guy in his company had some sort of issue with him and bad-mouthed him to higher ups, and my husband was completely unaware of what was going on and he wasn't in the office to be able to counteract any of it. He eventually had to leave that department just to get away from that guy. Still no idea what happened or why he was targeted. If he was a woman, it would have been very easy to claim discrimination, but obviously, that wasn't the problem - the guy was just a jackass, and who knows why it happened.
Again, not to say that sexism/racism/ism's in general don't exist, but that you can't let that stop you from doing what you want to do. You have to find a way to find the success you want in spite of it.
I think we just might have different experiences and that's totally ok.
I've seen so much sexist behavior towards female sales reps and I have yet to see anyone I have worked with over the past 15 years actually cry discrimination. I've seen more women lose power within an organization because they weren't "playing ball" with the people propositioning them. I've seen women quit high-paying jobs and change fields out of desperation because there was nowhere to run and no one to tell about the bad situation.So I don't feel like crying discrimination would be inaccurate. But I really haven't seen anyone do it and I've also never seen any repercussions for these sleazeball guys. I'm just glad that there are fewer and fewer of them, but they definitely still exist. I'm not sure what a woman "should" do in some of these situations because running to HR would be career-ending, and giving in to pressure would be morally devastating.
I didn't really want to turn this thread into a #metoo sort of thing. That's totally not where I'm going. I'm just saying that in my experience, saleswomen who travel are a target for both sleazeballs within the company and sleazeball clients. I even think that the company often knows. I mean why is it that there are a larger than average number of attractive women in sales? It's kind of disgusting when you think about it.
So again, this is why I have never ever played the female card. I have fought my way to the position I'm in now and proud of it. But from the horrible situations I have seen, I can't fault anyone for doing it. But in reality, the vast majority women in my field just suck it up or quit.
RE: HR Advice - dfrecore - 02-04-2019
(02-04-2019, 12:01 PM)burbuja0512 Wrote: I think we just might have different experiences and that's totally ok.
So I don't feel like crying discrimination would be inaccurate. But I really haven't seen anyone do it and I've also never seen any repercussions for these sleazeball guys. I'm just glad that there are fewer and fewer of them, but they definitely still exist. I'm not sure what a woman "should" do in some of these situations because running to HR would be career-ending, and giving in to pressure would be morally devastating.
I didn't really want to turn this thread into a #metoo sort of thing. That's totally not where I'm going. I'm just saying that in my experience, saleswomen who travel are a target for both sleazeballs within the company and sleazeball clients. I even think that the company often knows. I mean why is it that there are a larger than average number of attractive women in sales? It's kind of disgusting when you think about it.
So again, this is why I have never ever played the female card. I have fought my way to the position I'm in now and proud of it. But from the horrible situations I have seen, I can't fault anyone for doing it. But in reality, the vast majority women in my field just suck it up or quit.
I was mostly responding to the earlier post where the person was basically saying there was discrimination going on, and that you should play the card. I was saying that it's a bad card to play, in a whole hand of bad cards.
I agree that there's almost no win in the situation. You either deal with it, or you leave. There just aren't any good options other than that. The best you can hope for is to work for a good company that understands, and has some things in place to help you cope with it (i.e. pairing you with a male support person who can "protect" you with his presence if necessary). Yes, it sucks that it needs to be that way. I totally agree. I just don't know that you can do anything except to keep doing what you're doing.