(06-14-2018, 06:04 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'd also like to point out that not all STEM degrees are created equal. As with most fields that have a high percentage of female workers, the life sciences do not pay a lot. People with government and international relations degrees make more than biology majors. Plus, biology and its various sub-fields produce the most STEM graduates because thousands of people major in biology with plans to go to medical school and either change their minds or can't get in.

(06-14-2018, 06:06 PM)icampy Wrote:

(06-14-2018, 06:04 PM)sanantone Wrote: I'd also like to point out that not all STEM degrees are created equal. As with most fields that have a high percentage of female workers, the life sciences do not pay a lot. People with government and international relations degrees make more than biology majors. Plus, biology and its various sub-fields produce the most STEM graduates because thousands of people major in biology with plans to go to medical school and either change their minds or can't get in.

I was shocked last year when I started looking up biology degrees. I always believed "wow, a scientist, they must make a fortune".

(06-14-2018, 05:37 PM)sanantone Wrote:

(06-14-2018, 04:35 PM)bluebooger Wrote: most liberal arts majors are useless : psychology, history, english, criminal justice ...

a job training certificate from a community college in bookkeeping, computer networking, computer programming is more useful

and nobody working the floor at Walmart or Target needs a degree
or any fast food place
secretaries and administrative assistants could be just as productive with a two semester certificate

I've worked in a hospital as a programmer for 10 years without a degree -- everyone here thinks I'm a genius for accomplishing what I think are the most trivial tasks

(06-14-2018, 05:05 PM)MNomadic Wrote: To be fair, liberal arts also includes math and the physical sciences.
I think that technical and vocational programs are massively underutilized these days as they somehow got a stigma for non-academic types. People got it in their heads that everyone had to go to college for a 4 year degree and it didn't matter what the major was. Unfortunately, a lot of people got themselves tens of thousands in debt with psychology, history, art, English, etc degrees with no plan on how they were going to use them. Meanwhile, lots of international students from India, Asia, Europe, and middle East come to the US for engineering and other stem degrees and jobs(my observation anyways).

It depends on your definition of useless. If you mean useless in that those degrees aren't needed to do the types of jobs people with those degrees do, then that might be subjective. If you mean useless in that those degrees won't get you a job, then statistics don't back up your assertions. People with those degrees have lower unemployment rates than people who only have a high school diploma, and they make more money. Most psychology majors have jobs that require a degree. 

This article is about new jobs that were created in 2017. You don't need a degree to work at McDonald's, but most of the new jobs aren't being created by fast food restaurants. Most administrative assistant jobs don't require a bachelor's degree, so that's a moot point. You can get a low-paying job at Walmart or Target, but Walmart and Target are not enough to employ all the unskilled people. We actually do have unskilled jobs that are not being filled, but those are jobs Americans don't want to do. Americans would rather be unemployed than work out in the hot sun or the cold. 

During the recession when many people were struggling to find work, I would tell them that security companies and corrections are always hiring, and it's easy to get in. Then, I would get the excuse that the jobs are dangerous. There is a very, very small chance that you will be shot as a security guard, but you're more likely to die or be injured working construction or truck driving. Corrections officers can be assaulted, but a very small percentage will ever be seriously injured or murdered. They're more likely to die from diseases caused by poor dietary choices and lack of exercise. People will make up all kinds of excuses to not do jobs they think are beneath them.

Since the job market recovered, I have had absolutely no problem with finding employment with my BA in Social Science. It's actually been my most valuable degree. The state and local governments are always hiring people with social science degrees. It's a matter of whether or not people want to do those jobs. Many people get degrees in psychology with plans to go to graduate school. When they decide not to, they're shocked that most of the jobs available to them involve working with criminals, addicts, and the poor.

(06-14-2018, 03:45 PM)sanantone Wrote: It's disengenuous to only talk about 4-year degrees whenever college is brought up, especially when 2-year colleges are being presented as an option. No one is saying that everyone needs a bachelor's degree. Community colleges and technical schools offer associate's degrees and certificate programs.

(06-14-2018, 06:49 PM)icampy Wrote: So, are you serious when you implied that the low pay has to do with the demographics of the workforce? That is interesting, I have never heard that expressed.

40k with a masters is insane. I hope biology majors do a simple glassdoor or indeed search before dropping all that time and cash. What a load of crap.

I am saying this as someone who wants a history degree for fun, but that's a different story.

(06-14-2018, 06:56 PM)dfrecore Wrote:

(06-14-2018, 03:45 PM)sanantone Wrote: It's disengenuous to only talk about 4-year degrees whenever college is brought up, especially when 2-year colleges are being presented as an option. No one is saying that everyone needs a bachelor's degree. Community colleges and technical schools offer associate's degrees and certificate programs.

I wasn't being disingenuous, I was specifically replying to the article, which stated in the 2nd line: "A three-month average finds that 91% of the net increase in jobs held by those at least 25 years old are filled by those with at least a bachelor’s degree..."

And I was not saying that companies want to train programmers from the ground up, as that would be ridiculous.  But saying that a programmer needs to have learned that in college, when MANY learn them other ways (and lots way before college) would be silly too.  If you know how to program, then the company doesn't need to train you at all, whether you have a college degree or not.