(12-01-2017, 09:30 AM)Bibby Wrote: There's a common misconception that the jobs market has an insatiable demand for people who are good at computers, and that anyone who gets a degree in anything IT-related will be swimming in job offers from big tech companies and will be making six figures as soon as they graduate.

It's true that a degree in Computer Science opens more doors than a degree in Art History or Gender Studies would. However, unemployment rates for American CS graduates are much higher than you might expect. I've known a lot of smart and talented people who could do amazing things with computers but have experienced great difficulty finding a job where they could use their skills. This problem isn't limited to people from a particular school, area of study, or geographic region - the IT industry makes it very difficult to get your foot in the door, especially if you're not well-connected. Most IT jobs emphasize experience above everything else - degrees and GPA mean very little, and it's getting harder and harder to use education and certifications as a substitute for the steep experience requirements that almost all IT jobs have. And while some people with advanced tech skills do indeed make big bucks, you probably won't earn a huge salary as soon as you graduate, and many people leave the profession before they gain enough experience to earn mid-career salaries ("median" salaries don't reflect what an entry-level position will actually pay).

As a society, we should not be pushing uninterested students into IT-related degree programs. The United Kingdom has a higher rate of students studying CS than the United States does, yet British CS graduates have some of the highest unemployment rates of any degree program.

As for diversity (or lack thereof) in IT, IT is like all professions in that it tends to attract a certain kind of person with a certain kind of background and interests. The majority of these people are male and are either white, Indian, or East Asian. People who choose IT aren't always the most well-adjusted socially, and they're not always welcoming of people who don't fit this mold. Media tends to exaggerate these negative stereotypes by portraying people with computer skills as being unattractive and unfashionable, traits that the majority of adolescents don't want to emulate.

I'm not a fan of the "everybody needs to major in STEM" movement pushed by many in government. However, having basic digital literacy skills is more important than ever before. The vast majority of jobs will involve using computers in some shape or form, and judging from the students I've taught at the college level, a lot of them struggle with intermediate computing skills - things like managing files and folders, understanding common file formats, and using basic Excel functions. These are things that anyone in any job needs to be able to do, and they're basically prerequisites for success for anyone considering an IT degree. A lot of older people assume that just because these kids grew up with computers that they know how to use them. However, being good at liking other people's Instagram posts is not the same as having the skills needed in business.

To make a long story short, if you like computers and programming things, consider an IT-related major. Make sure that kids are exposed to programming and IT so they can decide whether they like it. If they don't like the idea of debugging code all day, don't push them into pursuing a field they don't like, but do make sure that they understand the basics of computing.

(12-01-2017, 09:30 AM)Bibby Wrote: However, having basic digital literacy skills is more important than ever before. The vast majority of jobs will involve using computers in some shape or form, and judging from the students I've taught at the college level, a lot of them struggle with intermediate computing skills - things like managing files and folders, understanding common file formats, and using basic Excel functions. These are things that anyone in any job needs to be able to do, and they're basically prerequisites for success for anyone considering an IT degree. A lot of older people assume that just because these kids grew up with computers that they know how to use them. However, being good at liking other people's Instagram posts is not the same as having the skills needed in business.

To make a long story short, if you like computers and programming things, consider an IT-related major. Make sure that kids are exposed to programming and IT so they can decide whether they like it. If they don't like the idea of debugging code all day, don't push them into pursuing a field they don't like, but do make sure that they understand the basics of computing.

(12-01-2017, 01:37 PM)sanantone Wrote: Georgetown did studies throughout the recovery from the Great Recession. Recent graduates of computer science and information systems programs were hit pretty hard along with accounting. Information systems actually had the highest unemployment rate for recent graduates. It can be difficult to break into the IT field without experience, which is why internships are so important. Otherwise, a lot of people start in low-paying tech support jobs. If I were younger, I likely would have taken that one tech support offer. But, I'm older and can't afford to live in Austin on $10-12 an hour.  

I agree that this is a hard field to switch to when you're older.  My husband started out with a bunch of certs including an MCSE back in 98, and started out as a help desk guy.  BUT, for anyone who has skills and talent in the field, it's fairly easy to move up, and within a few years, he was making a LOT more money than he started.  But, if you're not 23, that can be a long time to not make a lot of money.

I'm not a fan of pushing everyone into STEM just like I'm not a fan of pushing everyone into healthcare. I don't consider healthcare to be STEM just like I don't consider finance and accounting to be STEM even though they involve mathematics (the federal government agrees with me). 

I don't consider healthcare to be STEM, just that a lot of the courses you need to take are STEM, so there are students in colleges in the STEM areas that are women for sure.  They just don't necessarily end up with STEM careers.  And definitely don't think that accounting and finance are STEM in any way.  The lower-level math required for those degrees doesn't count to me.

I think the reason why women are being pushed into STEM is that almost every female-dominated occupation is low-paying. The only one I can think of right now that has high pay is nursing. Among the STEM majors that do have a lot of women (life sciences), they tend to be the lowest paying. Chemistry, physics, mathematics, and engineering majors tend to get paid more than biology, microbiology, physical/biological anthropology, and environmental science majors.

I agree, but I think that there's a reason women choose those fields in spite of the lower pay.  Look at the motivation there, because no amount of trying to convince women that higher pay = higher job satisfaction is going to work.  They don't want to work in those fields, for a variety of reasons.  For many who are in a 2-income household, they don't care that much about higher pay.  They want their work to have meaning, and flexibility, and many of the male-dominated jobs just don't have those.  When I think about going back to work someday, my #1 thing is to make sure that I have flexibility.  My husband is the breadwinner, so I don't need to provide enough money for us to live on.  So I get to choose to work based on other things.  His benefits are excellent, I can choose to work part-time or as a contractor.  There is nothing anyone can say to me that will convince me that I should work in an extremely competitive field, or one that pays really well but requires a ton of my time, or one that requires a lot of hours, or whatever.  I am just not interested.

Even though there is a shortage of educators and mental health professionals, these are relatively low-paying jobs, and they just happen to be female-dominated fields. Education is among the lowest paying jobs that require a bachelors degree. Mental health professionals need a 60-credit masters degree in many states plus 1.5 to 2 years of interning. While the federal government and some state governments have tried to help the shortage by offering tuition reimbursement, as large employers of mental health professionals, it doesn't appear that governments have considered raising the pay. It's basic supply and demand. Not many people want to spend 2.5 to 3 years in a graduate program just to earn $40k-50k. So, I just laugh as legislators stand around and scratch their heads wondering what they're going to do about the lack of access to mental healthcare. 

Most of the moms I know are teachers or nurses, and for one reason: they have kids!  They get lots of time off, flexible schedules, and good pay (here in CA teachers are paid quite well most of the time).  Their husbands work, and they really don't want to miss their kids games or activities.  Even the moms of kids I know who are low-income have flexible jobs as well, or work part-time, or not at all, because they would rather be with their kids than making money for some company.  It's just the way things are.  Yes, some women really want to get up that corporate ladder, but most don't because it's not a priority to them.  No one is going to convince them otherwise.

(12-02-2017, 07:14 AM)mudball Wrote: "I've mostly worked in the criminal justice realm where veterans' preference is quite common. On civil service tests, veterans get five additional points most of the time. Police departments also go out and actively recruit veterans just like they try to recruit women and minorities. I don't hear people complain about veterans preference as much as they complain about targeted recruiting of minorities and women (unless you're a Native American applying for certain positions involving reservations). Minorities and women don't even get extra points on civil service exams or preference in federal hiring."

My husband is a police officer and they give extra points on the civil service exam for college degrees and veterans. I think both of those things would be considered qualifications for that particular field. Being a woman or minority is not a qualification, it is your genetic makeup.
That being said, being a veteran certainly doesn't make you more qualified for all civil service jobs. I agree with your point that there are far fewer complaints about that advantage than the specific recruitment of women or minorities.

(12-01-2017, 03:19 PM)dfrecore Wrote:

(12-01-2017, 09:30 AM)Bibby Wrote: However, having basic digital literacy skills is more important than ever before. The vast majority of jobs will involve using computers in some shape or form, and judging from the students I've taught at the college level, a lot of them struggle with intermediate computing skills - things like managing files and folders, understanding common file formats, and using basic Excel functions. These are things that anyone in any job needs to be able to do, and they're basically prerequisites for success for anyone considering an IT degree. A lot of older people assume that just because these kids grew up with computers that they know how to use them. However, being good at liking other people's Instagram posts is not the same as having the skills needed in business.

To make a long story short, if you like computers and programming things, consider an IT-related major. Make sure that kids are exposed to programming and IT so they can decide whether they like it. If they don't like the idea of debugging code all day, don't push them into pursuing a field they don't like, but do make sure that they understand the basics of computing.

At both of my kids schools (and other schools around here), they are required to take a computers course the first couple weeks of school to learn Google docs.  Thereafter, all of their papers are done online and turned in that way - no paper here!  They also have to do online courses, and online projects with multiple students working on a single project together (and their teachers can see who contributed what).  I think that students should at least be doing this pretty regularly.  I don't think they need to be exposed to programming though (just my bias as someone who has zero interest in that, and kids who have no interest either).  Plus, how are schools going to fit in programming in addition to all of the other things they're teaching kids?  There is just no time to add that in.  Or teachers who know enough to teach all of them.

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(12-01-2017, 01:37 PM)sanantone Wrote: Georgetown did studies throughout the recovery from the Great Recession. Recent graduates of computer science and information systems programs were hit pretty hard along with accounting. Information systems actually had the highest unemployment rate for recent graduates. It can be difficult to break into the IT field without experience, which is why internships are so important. Otherwise, a lot of people start in low-paying tech support jobs. If I were younger, I likely would have taken that one tech support offer. But, I'm older and can't afford to live in Austin on $10-12 an hour.  

I agree that this is a hard field to switch to when you're older.  My husband started out with a bunch of certs including an MCSE back in 98, and started out as a help desk guy.  BUT, for anyone who has skills and talent in the field, it's fairly easy to move up, and within a few years, he was making a LOT more money than he started.  But, if you're not 23, that can be a long time to not make a lot of money.

I'm not a fan of pushing everyone into STEM just like I'm not a fan of pushing everyone into healthcare. I don't consider healthcare to be STEM just like I don't consider finance and accounting to be STEM even though they involve mathematics (the federal government agrees with me). 

I don't consider healthcare to be STEM, just that a lot of the courses you need to take are STEM, so there are students in colleges in the STEM areas that are women for sure.  They just don't necessarily end up with STEM careers.  And definitely don't think that accounting and finance are STEM in any way.  The lower-level math required for those degrees doesn't count to me.

I think the reason why women are being pushed into STEM is that almost every female-dominated occupation is low-paying. The only one I can think of right now that has high pay is nursing. Among the STEM majors that do have a lot of women (life sciences), they tend to be the lowest paying. Chemistry, physics, mathematics, and engineering majors tend to get paid more than biology, microbiology, physical/biological anthropology, and environmental science majors.

I agree, but I think that there's a reason women choose those fields in spite of the lower pay.  Look at the motivation there, because no amount of trying to convince women that higher pay = higher job satisfaction is going to work.  They don't want to work in those fields, for a variety of reasons.  For many who are in a 2-income household, they don't care that much about higher pay.  They want their work to have meaning, and flexibility, and many of the male-dominated jobs just don't have those.  When I think about going back to work someday, my #1 thing is to make sure that I have flexibility.  My husband is the breadwinner, so I don't need to provide enough money for us to live on.  So I get to choose to work based on other things.  His benefits are excellent, I can choose to work part-time or as a contractor.  There is nothing anyone can say to me that will convince me that I should work in an extremely competitive field, or one that pays really well but requires a ton of my time, or one that requires a lot of hours, or whatever.  I am just not interested.

Even though there is a shortage of educators and mental health professionals, these are relatively low-paying jobs, and they just happen to be female-dominated fields. Education is among the lowest paying jobs that require a bachelors degree. Mental health professionals need a 60-credit masters degree in many states plus 1.5 to 2 years of interning. While the federal government and some state governments have tried to help the shortage by offering tuition reimbursement, as large employers of mental health professionals, it doesn't appear that governments have considered raising the pay. It's basic supply and demand. Not many people want to spend 2.5 to 3 years in a graduate program just to earn $40k-50k. So, I just laugh as legislators stand around and scratch their heads wondering what they're going to do about the lack of access to mental healthcare. 

Most of the moms I know are teachers or nurses, and for one reason: they have kids!  They get lots of time off, flexible schedules, and good pay (here in CA teachers are paid quite well most of the time).  Their husbands work, and they really don't want to miss their kids games or activities.  Even the moms of kids I know who are low-income have flexible jobs as well, or work part-time, or not at all, because they would rather be with their kids than making money for some company.  It's just the way things are.  Yes, some women really want to get up that corporate ladder, but most don't because it's not a priority to them.  No one is going to convince them otherwise.

(12-02-2017, 12:29 PM)Joeman200 Wrote: Oh boy, I want to add my two cents without opening a can of worms...

"Minorities and women don't even get extra points on civil service exams or preference in federal hiring." That's a good thing right? Aren't equal rights what America is about? If that were to happen, by definition that would be racist and sexist to white men. That being said, actually excluding people (e.g. no females are allowed to become firefighters) I think is completely wrong. People have the freedom to pursue whatever career they want, but they should be held to the same standards as everyone else.

I don't think there is a need to push certain groups towards specific occupations. I think people do (or try to do) what they want to do. Using females as an example again, I see a lot female dental hygienists, school teachers, and nurses. I don't see a lot of female construction workers, foresters, or commercial fishermen. The former one get to work with and help people, the latter is hard, sweaty work. If a man wants to be a nurse, cool. If a woman wants to be a forester, cool. However, I think things are the way they are because of psychological and biological differences that unconsciously lead us different ways.

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That's an interesting article you shared sanantone. The one solider who said, “simply because I was an infantryman and those are my skills. Anything you want to see in a soldier, you want to see in a policeman.” Wow, my capstone project is exactly the opposite of that. My research so far has shown me that "procedural justice" (treating people with respect and dignity) is very important. It's the military structure that harms that because using force is acceptable and it creates social distance from police and citizens.