The Great Debate - Free College For All

[MSK9]

Uh, no. When you categorize people by whether they are prone to biases, you are 1. Arguing ad hominem, and 2. Making a false dichotomy - all people are incredibly prone to biases.

Then we're at an impasse. There's a clear difference between ad hominem attacks and observations of another's actions. A statement such as "all people are incredibly prone to biases" is in itself a biased statement.  

He's trying to apply the self-fulfilling prophecy concept to this situation. Since I haven't seen MSK9 participate in political threads or remember many posts from him in political threads, my post was based on him conveniently being temporarily blind when glancing over LifeLongLearning's post AND the quote of what LifeLongLearning said in my post. Could that be the result of implicit bias? I don't know. I'll take MSK9's approach and say that I've found that people who are actually biased tend to miss obvious things.

This is inaccurate. 

You continue to assert bias rather than taking ownership of your political myopia. I don't have a political bone to pick with anyone here, and I typically stay out of the political arena. I directly addressed your post since you attempted to reinforce your overtly political point using Mississippi as an example. 

On most threads, I tend to read the first post, then skip to the last post and work my way backward. You'd know that if you had asked upfront. Instead, you've seen what you've wanted to see and responded according. Projection much?

[videogamesrock]

The unfair portion of free college for all is that poor people will subsidize wealthier peoples education. For example 2/3 of adults do not have a college degree, and low-income earners will never have one; yet would be required to pay a lifetime in extra taxes so that those higher income earners will have free college. Another example of taxing the poor so the no so poor can get a discount on education. This is already happening with state tax dollars going to universities.

This was a great debate on Free to Choose, a documentary you can watch on Amazon Prime. I highly recommend it.

[eriehiker]

I think that the idea that any party in Washington is fiscally responsible is crazy. Both Democrats and Republicans spend money like drunken fools. I just looked at the U.S. Debt Clock and we are now past one trillion in the budget deficit just for this year. The most popular theory right now is that debts don't matter. This idea is even put forward by prominent Republicans. Of course, they don't matter until they matter.

The reality is that policy drives debt/deficit policy and not the other way around. Each party makes an a priori decision about what it wants to do and then it creates a debt/deficit policy to fit. So Democrats like social programs and Republicans like military spending.

I don't like the idea of free college because I think that there is value in a college student having a job during college. I also think that there are a great many things that can be done to make college pricing less opaque. I search a lot of college web pages looking for tuition rates and it is always three or four links in. There should be a law that places the credit hour price on every piece of mail sent out by a college.

One thing that I do have a problem with is Republicans criticizing Democrats for wanting to spend money on free college. I have watched politics closely since the 1980 election. The craziest thing that I have ever seen is the invasion of Iraq. George W. Bush had everything set up perfectly with Iraq until he invaded. Saddam Hussein was doing pretty much everything Bush wanted him to do. My biggest issue with the invasion at the time was that it would be a colossal waste of lives and money. And we have spent trillions of dollars on the thing. I know that Hillary voted for the authorization, but this was a Republican war. It was going to happen no matter what Democrats in the Senate wanted to do. They voted for authorization to keep themselves relevant politically. If you actually look back at what happened, you will find this to be true.

I thought the war was stupid at the time, but now the country is filled with people who supported the war, went to fight it and now demand generous government programs to honor their service. There is something really wrong with that given that Iraq was a Republican war. Also, many young people join the military now essentially as a jobs program.

The focus on the military and war was an a priori decision that drove policy on debt and deficit. So I see no problem with Democrats who make an a priori decision about free college. The spending/deficit argument is completely empty to me.

[videogamesrock]

I think that the idea that any party in Washington is fiscally responsible is crazy. Both Democrats and Republicans spend money like drunken fools. I just looked at the U.S. Debt Clock and we are now past one trillion in the budget deficit just for this year. The most popular theory right now is that debts don't matter. This idea is even put forward by prominent Republicans. Of course, they don't matter until they matter.

The reality is that policy drives debt/deficit policy and not the other way around. Each party makes an a priori decision about what it wants to do and then it creates a debt/deficit policy to fit. So Democrats like social programs and Republicans like military spending.

I don't like the idea of free college because I think that there is value in a college student having a job during college. I also think that there are a great many things that can be done to make college pricing less opaque. I search a lot of college web pages looking for tuition rates and it is always three or four links in. There should be a law that places the credit hour price on every piece of mail sent out by a college.

One thing that I do have a problem with is Republicans criticizing Democrats for wanting to spend money on free college. I have watched politics closely since the 1980 election. The craziest thing that I have ever seen is the invasion of Iraq. George W. Bush had everything set up perfectly with Iraq until he invaded. Saddam Hussein was doing pretty much everything Bush wanted him to do. My biggest issue with the invasion at the time was that it would be a colossal waste of lives and money. And we have spent trillions of dollars on the thing. I know that Hillary voted for the authorization, but this was a Republican war. It was going to happen no matter what Democrats in the Senate wanted to do. They voted for authorization to keep themselves relevant politically. If you actually look back at what happened, you will find this to be true.

I thought the war was stupid at the time, but now the country is filled with people who supported the war, went to fight it and now demand generous government programs to honor their service. There is something really wrong with that given that Iraq was a Republican war. Also, many young people join the military now essentially as a jobs program.

The focus on the military and war was an a priori decision that drove policy on debt and deficit. So I see no problem with Democrats who make an a priori decision about free college. The spending/deficit argument is completely empty to me.

I’m very curious about the sequester cuts that should kick in this year. My guess there will still be deficit spending.


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[natshar]

I don't like the idea of free college because I think that there is value in a college student having a job during college.  I also think that there are a great many things that can be done to make college pricing less opaque.  I search a lot of college web pages looking for tuition rates and it is always three or four links in.  There should be a law that places the credit hour price on every piece of mail sent out by a college.

Yes! I don't think graduating from college with no work experience is helpful. Yes, you would have a degree, but I'm not sure who would hire someone who had never had a job. I've learned a lot from the various jobs I've held over the years. Dare I say, I've learned more from working at my jobs than I ever did from 2 years at CC. Even fast food and retail jobs teach a lot of things in my opinion. If college were free, there might be young people with degrees who have absolutely no idea how the world works.


And double yes to the second point! It still frustrates me how long it takes to find the cost of tuition on most colleges websites. You have to click through three links like you said. But what I think is funny is usually the first few links just describe how that college is a smart financial choice and how affordable it is and 99% of their students qualify for aid, etc. (remember loans count as aid so that's how they can say such a high %) And by now I learned the page you click to find the tuition is usually titled "financial aid." Ironic isn't it?

[dfrecore]

And by now I learned the page you click to find the tuition is usually titled "financial aid." Ironic isn't it?

Drives me insane!!

[Life Long Learning]

Colleges have conditioned and trained Americans its all about them (how much money the student will throw at them) and not about outcomes.  Its a scam the Gov't lets them get away with.

[dfrecore]

Colleges have conditioned and trained Americans its all about them (how much money the student will throw at them) and not about outcomes.  Its a scam the Gov't lets them get away with.

It's PEOPLE who let them get away with it.  As soon as enough people start to say thanks but no thanks to college debt, the landscape will change in a hurry.  If millions decide to only go where they can afford to pay out of pocket, or with financial aid that doesn't include loans, schools will be forced to change their ways.

The government doesn't have to do everything.  Sometimes, market forces can do as much or more than the government can, in less time, and with less disruption.  Counting on the government to fix your problems is a painful way to live.  Especially considering that they helped cause the problems in the first place. The law of unintended consequences...

[Life Long Learning]

Colleges have conditioned and trained Americans its all about them (how much money the student will throw at them) and not about outcomes.  Its a scam the Gov't lets them get away with.

It's PEOPLE who let them get away with it.  As soon as enough people start to say thanks but no thanks to college debt, the landscape will change in a hurry.  If millions decide to only go where they can afford to pay out of pocket, or with financial aid that doesn't include loans, schools will be forced to change their ways.

The government doesn't have to do everything.  Sometimes, market forces can do as much or more than the government can, in less time, and with less disruption.  Counting on the government to fix your problems is a painful way to live.  Especially considering that they helped cause the problems in the first place. The law of unintended consequences...

You make excellent points and I agree with them, but the Gov't-Edu Complex (controlled by Dems/Reps) has caused this as you pointed out and the sheep are too stupid to do their own research.  Folks on this forum do, but 99% of American's have never heard of the Big 3 and they have been around since 1971.  One day the folks here will be bailing out the greedy by paying down THEIR student loans of getting an ivy league level degree in basket weaving and the other half who never completed a degree but have debt.  I have faith in the two corrupt parties to want to get cheap votes.  Your version of individual responsibility is not what they want to stay in power.  I have less faith that the PEOPLE will say no.

I do understand the law of unintended consequences and if they do ever pass FREE public univeristy degrees for all I think all those 1,000 useless small liberal arts colleges who are already starting to die will go away.

[dfrecore]

Colleges have conditioned and trained Americans its all about them (how much money the student will throw at them) and not about outcomes.  Its a scam the Gov't lets them get away with.

It's PEOPLE who let them get away with it.  As soon as enough people start to say thanks but no thanks to college debt, the landscape will change in a hurry.  If millions decide to only go where they can afford to pay out of pocket, or with financial aid that doesn't include loans, schools will be forced to change their ways.

The government doesn't have to do everything.  Sometimes, market forces can do as much or more than the government can, in less time, and with less disruption.  Counting on the government to fix your problems is a painful way to live.  Especially considering that they helped cause the problems in the first place. The law of unintended consequences...

You make excellent points and I agree with them, but the Gov't-Edu Complex (controlled by Dems/Reps) has caused this as you pointed out and the sheep are too stupid to do their own research.  Folks on this forum do, but 99% of American's have never heard of the Big 3 and they have been around since 1971.  One day the folks here will be bailing out the greedy by paying down THEIR student loans of getting an ivy league level degree in basket weaving and the other half who never completed a degree but have debt.  I have faith in the two corrupt parties to want to get cheap votes.  Your version of individual responsibility is not what they want to stay in power.  I have less faith that the PEOPLE will say no.

I do understand the law of unintended consequences and if they do ever pass FREE public univeristy degrees for all I think all those 1,000 useless small liberal arts colleges who are already starting to die will go away.

I'm not talking about the Big 3 at all, just the cost of college as a whole.

As for small colleges going away, why would that happen if the government paid for people to go to school there?  There's no such thing as free college, or even government-paid college, it's just taxpayer-paid college.  Colleges will be way overcrowded, and students who are serious about schooling will still opt for non-free versions of school (after all, 4-yr state schools are cheaper than private universities, yet many opt for the more expensive version now, why wouldn't they then?).

Here in CA, our CSU-system schools are decently priced, but so full they're busting at the seams.  It is almost impossible to graduate in 4 years - you just can't get the courses you need to graduate.  People are choosing private, out-of-state, UC's, whatever else to get their degrees, because they just CANNOT do anything else.