The Duggars and CollegePlus

[Publius]

Degreeinfo.com was around back then and so was another online degree forum. I discovered 3 or more online degree forums that mentioned the Big 3 before I came across this one. Although not free, John Bear's books have been around for decades. His book sells for around $30 now.

It was still SUPER unpopular, and even less applied in the past. At TESC, in 1996, the maximum number of students who would of tested out, was 43 (less then 4.5% of total degrees awarded). And in 1999, a maximum of 77 would tested out (less then 7.6%). Those numbers are coming from here http://www.degreeforum.net/excelsior-tho...-tesc.html

It was not that popular at all. Any place you could of gone on the internet or whatever book you could of read, would of probably been approached with much more skepticism and doubt. People STILL can't believe you can obtain a college degree this way, even after thousands of people have done so. Think of how much harder it would of been to believe and do it when only a handful of people did it. There would be no "specific exam feedback" hardly any feedback at all, save for maybe word of mouth. It was a lot tougher and unpopular even just a decade ago.
But in the last decade a revolution took place in higher education and from online communities like degreeinfo and this site, degreeforum, to other sites, to companies like Verity, and CollegePlus, etc. have all been helping people save countless millions of $$$ and years of time.
So yes, there was an occasional book or site that explained it or mentioned the big 3, but it wasn't enough. It was the starting place, a beginning, but not enough to sustain it. Now, it's increasing in popularity exponentially, and as time goes on, I doubt you'll have to worry about CP. If their services really aren't worth 3K, guess what, they'll have to lower their price tag, or board of their windows and go out of business.

[jenniferhc]

mrs.b,

I have never used CollegePlus myself, but I know several families who do. And while I only have two children, these families have four or more. That they choose to hire CP to coach their older teens through homeschooling college while they spend the bulk of their own time teaching their younger children is well within their rights and hardly something they (or CP) should be criticized for. We homeschoolers have to plan and evaluate our curriculum, design our schedules, teach our children, make sure we are operating within whatever homeschool accountability laws affect us, drive our children to a myriad of activities like field trips, co-op days, and sports events, and still get all that regular "life" stuff done on the side. I think many moms decide that having that coach is worth it, in the same way you pay someone to mow your lawn and I pay someone to change the oil on our van. We all choose what we will do for ourselves and what we will pay someone else to do, and many times, we are paying for something that we could do for ourselves, but have determined our time is better spent elsewhere.

I think what some people aren't understanding here is that for many homeschoolers, they are combining high school and college. This means generally the students are in the 14-18yo range and (depending on their state laws) they can't necessarily cram through a bunch of InstantCert flashcards for four weeks, take a test, and call it done. They still have to meet any number of requirements, such as a set number of school days or hours of classroom learning. They may have to meet yearly with a certified teacher to demonstrate their child's learning/accomplishments. In these cases, the moms are still working with their children from some kind of more traditional curriculum, and then leaving the the exams-for-college credit part of it mostly up to the CP coach.

My point is, I suppose, that this isn't really about the information being freely available at all. It's about paying for a service, and unless you yourself are a homeschooling mom (or dad) and have taken on all the work and responsibility involved in such an endeavor, you probably aren't really in a position to judge whether or not these parents are either wasting their money out of laziness or wasting their money because they are apparently too ignorant to know they can go it alone. (That second assumption is rather silly, IMHO. Homeschooling parents have already thumbed their noses at the "let someone else do it" method of education in general. Do you really think they can't find out info on CLEPs on their own?)You may think they are wasting their money, but it's not up to you to decide.

Unless the naysayers here are volunteering to step up and become free CP-like coaches who will work directly with the teens to design their degree plans, who will call/email these students regularly to keep in touch and keep them on track, and who will operate as outside mentors and guides as sort of relief pitchers for the very weary moms who've been on the mound for years, then I'm not sure I even understand the point to this entire thread. Of course they can get the information for free. That's not the only thing they are looking for, and that's definitely not the only thing they are paying for.

[mrs.b]

mrs.b,

...

You may think they are wasting their money, but it's not up to you to decide.

Did you mean to direct that to someone else? Those were my points exactly; we agree. Your money, your choice. As far as the larger marketplace is concerned, your willingness to pay dictates whether or not CP's price point is realistic.

I do homeschool, while working full-time outside the home, and taking care of a household, with my husband 50/50; we are new to it, granted, but we're already juggling that and many other balls. We were going to wait to pull our son and start the process but circumstances accelerated our plans and we had to pull him to put him in a better and safer environment through which to learn, and he's doing MUCH better. Many of the parents here on DF helped me reach the conclusion to withdraw him and give him a different and better opportunity, and helped form a plan to make it all work out. In fact, one of the people on this forum is what I'd call a pioneer and published author of self-help books for parents to put their kids on the accelerated road from homeschool to higher education that both DF and CP cater (to earn college credits while in high school) and we're very proud of her. Many of the DF members are homeschool parents or students themselves. Please take a deep breath and try not to see personal assaults where there are none.

It is your choice how you spend your money, who you pay, and your reasons for paying it. I also see where sanantone is coming from by looking at the larger marketplace. The disconnect throughout this entire thread, in my opinion, comes from the direction and personal experiences of each commenter. The fantastic thing is...no one has to agree. CP will stay in business so long as some families are willing to pay their price, and so long as those customers feel the service given meets expectations. Just like the kid around the corner will stay in the grass mowing business so long as I and others continue to pay him. It's business economics, not some deep and meaningful moral or immoral question or personal attack on anyone's methodologies of child rearing. CP is in business, provides a service, and the customers are satisfied. 'Nuff said. Good for them, and good for the people who find value. The rest of us can do it ourselves and use the money elsewhere, as we see fit. It's each person's choice how and where they'll invest finances.

In short, I agree with you.
:o

[sanantone]

sanantone,

Are you a homeschooling parent? And if so, would you mind telling me how many children you have and how long you've been homeschooling them?

No, I don't have any children yet. When I do have children, I won't be paying a company like CollegePlus or Verity. I already know how to plan a degree and it doesn't take long.

I'll go one step further and offer an analogy of this argument:

My husband and I take turns mowing the lawn. We each also have a budget of free funds to spend; bills get paid, then we each receive spending cash to do with as we please. My husband mows the lawn himself. I hate the task and pay a neighbor kid $20 to do it when it is my turn. No matter who is responsible on a given week, the grass gets mowed. In my husband's case, he has $20 to spend on other things. I choose to forfeit $20 to save myself the time and effort of a task I dislike; other people in the neighborhood that this same kid works for have disabilities and use his service because they are unable to do it on their own. In my case, I find my time is better-used for other things I would rather do (cleaning the house, working on our kiddo's homeschool lesson plan, buying groceries, etc). My husband finds my expenditure wasteful, but I find it valuable. I could do it on my own - sure - but I choose not to, for my own reasons.

Since I could technically accomplish the task on my own - I have no limiting disabilities to prevent me from doing it on my own, I choose to forfeit that money so I can use that time on other things - am I in the wrong for using those services? Is that kid immoral for charging me for something I could do for free? If he charged $75 and I was still willing to pay it, would he be wrong or would my willingness to pay dictate whether or not the choice was moral or immoral? Since my husband vehemently dislikes that I do it, does that change any of the above answers, even though the money I use comes from my slush fund and has no impact on him?

This, to me, seems to be a boiled down account of the entire arguments in this thread.

First, it wouldn't cost you $3,000 to have your grass cut every week for a year. Second, the kid is not doing something that a volunteer would do for you for free. The information CP provides is out there for free. Third, the kid probably isn't marketing himself as a Christian business that will pray for you and the provide spiritual guidance that one could get for free by an ordained minister.

It was still SUPER unpopular, and even less applied in the past. At TESC, in 1996, the maximum number of students who would of tested out, was 43 (less then 4.5% of total degrees awarded). And in 1999, a maximum of 77 would tested out (less then 7.6%). Those numbers are coming from here http://www.degreeforum.net/excelsior-tho...-tesc.html

It was not that popular at all. Any place you could of gone on the internet or whatever book you could of read, would of probably been approached with much more skepticism and doubt. People STILL can't believe you can obtain a college degree this way, even after thousands of people have done so. Think of how much harder it would of been to believe and do it when only a handful of people did it. There would be no "specific exam feedback" hardly any feedback at all, save for maybe word of mouth. It was a lot tougher and unpopular even just a decade ago.
But in the last decade a revolution took place in higher education and from online communities like degreeinfo and this site, degreeforum, to other sites, to companies like Verity, and CollegePlus, etc. have all been helping people save countless millions of $$$ and years of time.
So yes, there was an occasional book or site that explained it or mentioned the big 3, but it wasn't enough. It was the starting place, a beginning, but not enough to sustain it. Now, it's increasing in popularity exponentially, and as time goes on, I doubt you'll have to worry about CP. If their services really aren't worth 3K, guess what, they'll have to lower their price tag, or board of their windows and go out of business.

I don't get your point. You said that CP was around before free help and info was readily available. That is not true. Degreeinfo was around before CP if CP started up in 03 or 04. Don't you think the increasing percentage of TESC students who know about CBEs has something to do with the Internet and the increasing popularity of online degrees? Going from the mid 90s to the 2000s we went from few people having access to the internet, to dial-up, to high speed broadband. We also went from correspondence education by mail to 100% online degrees. It's easier to do research when you have access to the internet. It's not like people were marketing CBEs on television commercials and in newspaper ads.

mrs.b,

I have never used CollegePlus myself, but I know several families who do. And while I only have two children, these families have four or more. That they choose to hire CP to coach their older teens through homeschooling college while they spend the bulk of their own time teaching their younger children is well within their rights and hardly something they (or CP) should be criticized for. We homeschoolers have to plan and evaluate our curriculum, design our schedules, teach our children, make sure we are operating within whatever homeschool accountability laws affect us, drive our children to a myriad of activities like field trips, co-op days, and sports events, and still get all that regular "life" stuff done on the side. I think many moms decide that having that coach is worth it, in the same way you pay someone to mow your lawn and I pay someone to change the oil on our van. We all choose what we will do for ourselves and what we will pay someone else to do, and many times, we are paying for something that we could do for ourselves, but have determined our time is better spent elsewhere.

I think what some people aren't understanding here is that for many homeschoolers, they are combining high school and college. This means generally the students are in the 14-18yo range and (depending on their state laws) they can't necessarily cram through a bunch of InstantCert flashcards for four weeks, take a test, and call it done. They still have to meet any number of requirements, such as a set number of school days or hours of classroom learning. They may have to meet yearly with a certified teacher to demonstrate their child's learning/accomplishments. In these cases, the moms are still working with their children from some kind of more traditional curriculum, and then leaving the the exams-for-college credit part of it mostly up to the CP coach.

Many people on this forum don't cram with Instantcert flashcards. They don't need someone to tell them to read a book and complete practice tests. When the child is already being taught at home combining high school and college courses in one, then not much additional time is being added. If they are learning college material at home, then all they have to do is go take the CBE. It's as simple as that. I may not have been homeschooled, but I took AP courses in high school. I earned high school credit and got the knowledge I needed to take an AP test at the same time.

My point is, I suppose, that this isn't really about the information being freely available at all. It's about paying for a service, and unless you yourself are a homeschooling mom (or dad) and have taken on all the work and responsibility involved in such an endeavor, you probably aren't really in a position to judge whether or not these parents are either wasting their money out of laziness or wasting their money because they are apparently too ignorant to know they can go it alone. (That second assumption is rather silly, IMHO. Homeschooling parents have already thumbed their noses at the "let someone else do it" method of education in general. Do you really think they can't find out info on CLEPs on their own?)You may think they are wasting their money, but it's not up to you to decide.

Unless the naysayers here are volunteering to step up and become free CP-like coaches who will work directly with the teens to design their degree plans, who will call/email these students regularly to keep in touch and keep them on track, and who will operate as outside mentors and guides as sort of relief pitchers for the very weary moms who've been on the mound for years, then I'm not sure I even understand the point to this entire thread. Of course they can get the information for free. That's not the only thing they are looking for, and that's definitely not the only thing they are paying for.

Many people on this forum already help others through email and private messages behind the scenes. If you need to ask a question, all you have to do is shoot a message to one of the more knowledgeable members of this forum and most will answer. I must have answered a dozen private messages for one member and he also sent messages to others. He now has his degree and didn't need weekly phone calls from a coach to finish it. If someone is going to pay CP for years, that increases the price from $3,000 to over $4,000 to $5,000-$6,000 and so on.

CP says that those who finish their bachelor's degrees through CP generally spend $10,000-$15,000. That is 2 to 3 times as much as one has to spend on a degree at one of the Big 3. Even before states were creating $10,000 bachelor's degrees, it was possible to finish one for under $15k without completing one CBE.

[sanantone]

How come I'm having a hard time finding CollegePlus' fee structure now? Am I skipping over something?

[jenniferhc]

Did you mean to direct that to someone else?

In short, I agree with you.
:o

I should have started out by saying, "I agree with you, and I think you and I as homeschool moms come at this with a different perspective."

Not sure why you think I'm feeling "assaulted." ???

And I haven't been posting here for long, but I have been involved in this for quite some time, and periodically scan these boards. My website's been up for 3 years now. I have done *dozens* of personalized degree plans for homeschoolers who can't afford CP. (In fact, I've been called more than once, "CP for poor people." in an affectionate sort of way.) I give presentations, for free to homeschool groups and the public at large. My website is geared toward showing people exactly how to do this, and again, it's all free. I field many, many, many emails every week. I take phone calls from people who really need help. I email them and check in with them from time to time. What started out small has turned into something that takes 30ish hours of my time every week, and it's only growing. I now regularly meet homeschoolers who say things like, "OMG! That's you? I love your site!" I have also been asked/volun-told on many occasions to write a book. I even started one. But (my apologies to the Jennifer who did) I decided, as I kept needing to change and update things while I was writing it, that it was something I would be uncomfortable putting out there, because it would be dated so quickly. I decided to stay with my website as I can constantly change and add things as needed.

You would probably think since I'm "CP for free," I'd be one of the last people to defend them. In fact, I do tell people all the time that they can do this without CP. I even suggest to them that they find a "buddy homeschool mom" who is doing the same thing so they can act as coaches to each other's kids. But I still firmly believe that CP serves a market and does not deserve this heavy-handed criticism.

There are only so many people I can help by myself. There are only so many plans I can do, emails I can answer, people I can coach over the phone, and presentations I can give. I'm very glad CP is out there for people who can afford it, because it gives me the chance to reach more people who can't.

[mrs.b]

First, it wouldn't cost you $3,000 to have your grass cut every week for a year. Second, the kid is not doing something that a volunteer would do for you for free. The information CP provides is out there for free. Third, the kid probably isn't marketing himself as a Christian business that will pray for you and the provide spiritual guidance that one could get for free by an ordained minister.

If he did charge $3000 to mow my postage stamp of a lawn, it would still be my choice whether or not the cost was worthwhile. And if part of that $3000/year grass mowing service was that he would pray to keep my lawn weed-free, it would still be my choice if I wished to see value in that. I do not require my neighbors to chip in; the funds come from my budget alone. My choice to take part in his offered services impact no one else; in fact, they benefit others (my grass gets mowed so it keeps my part of the neighborhood looking nice). Just like CP's services honestly only impact the specific family that chooses to take part in their services, and in the long run help the larger marketplace by putting another college-educated person in the job market. Their choice to hire CP for whatever reason they do has absolutely no impact on you or me or anyone else.

Sanantone, I respect you because you have made significant contributions to this forum, but I'm confused why this entire debate has gone around and around so many times. The entire argument is based on the simple concept of business economics, supply/demand, and whether CP and DF are direct or indirect competition. The ultimate decision for each of those questions is answered by each individual consumer, not by you or me or anyone else. Clearly, some consumers feel DF and CP are not direct competition - they both offer some similar services, but not identical. It's their choice whether they spend their money on it. I'm not sure about you, but I do not have the time or interest in dictating how every other college-seeking student spends their money, but this entire argument and thread appears to be an attempt to do just that.

[sanantone]

If he did charge $3000 to mow my postage stamp of a lawn, it would still be my choice whether or not the cost was worthwhile. And if part of that $3000/year grass mowing service was that he would pray to keep my lawn weed-free, it would still be my choice if I wished to see value in that. I do not require my neighbors to chip in; the funds come from my budget alone. My choice to take part in his offered services impact no one else; in fact, they benefit others (my grass gets mowed so it keeps my part of the neighborhood looking nice). Just like CP's services honestly only impact the specific family that chooses to take part in their services, and in the long run help the larger marketplace by putting another college-educated person in the job market. Their choice to hire CP for whatever reason they do has absolutely no impact on you or me or anyone else.

Sanantone, I respect you because you have made significant contributions to this forum, but I'm confused why this entire debate has gone around and around so many times. The entire argument is based on the simple concept of business economics, supply/demand, and whether CP and DF are direct or indirect competition. The ultimate decision for each of those questions is answered by each individual consumer, not by you or me or anyone else. Clearly, some consumers feel DF and CP are not direct competition - they both offer some similar services, but not identical. It's their choice whether they spend their money on it. I'm not sure about you, but I do not have the time or interest in dictating how every other college-seeking student spends their money, but this entire argument and thread appears to be an attempt to do just that.

My criticism is mostly of CollegePlus and not the naive families. Looking at the CP website today, their marketing has become vague. I wouldn't be surprised if they're monitoring this thread. They'll probably change their website back.

DF is not a business or even a non-profit organization. It's not in competition with anyone.

[mrs.b]

My criticism is mostly of CollegePlus and not the naive families. Looking at the CP website today, their marketing has become vague. I wouldn't be surprised if they're monitoring this thread. They'll probably change their website back.

DF is not a business or even a non-profit organization. It's not in competition with anyone.

No offense intended, but I think you might be giving a little too much credit to the importance of this discussion. Many companies rearrange their websites on a regular basis; it may have just been time for theirs. Whatever the reasons for a change, even if it is based on this discussion (which I personally feel is a longshot, but to each their own) changing strategies based on market movement is a time-tested business maneuver. I'm uncertain what relevance that has on the discussion?

Thank you for clarifying that criticism is not aimed at the consumers, though I foresee continued dispute with the connection of being naive. Like every other family finance decision, some people choose to pay others for a service that could do themselves, while others choose to invest the time and effort to do it themselves. Like mowing grass or hiring a neighborhood kid, hiring a contractor versus renovating ourselves, paying someone to change vehicle oil or getting greasy. That argument has been made numerous times throughout the thread and overlooked. Saving money or hiring someone elses' services is a finance choice, rarely naivety. Again, though, that is personal perspective, and the root of that debate is what frequently comes to play in political discussions.

CP offers a niche service. The niche itself is minuscule in the grand scheme of the overall higher education market. They cater largely to a homeschool / high school group interested in seeking college credit at the same time. The service they offer, while you may not see the value, is clearly of value to others because they hire them, recommend them to others, and maintain subscriptions. If they were a predatory service, they would have complaints. On the contrary, they are accredited with the Better Business Bureau and have an A+ rating with no complaints for three years. CollegePlus! Review - Educational Consultants in Spring Branch, TX - BBB Business Review - BBB serving Central, Coastal, Southwest Texas and the Permian Basin Likewise, I could not find evidence of Attorney General complaints.

While I do not personally find value in CP's services because my personal circumstances did not include me in their niche, others seem to based upon strong defense of their services despite knowing about free planning alternatives provided by peers (fellow consumers) here. That is not naivety, that is personal choice. That, and the lack of consumer complaints also appears to demonstrate that their niche service offering is legitimate and of value to their consumers. That is simply business and the free market at work. For consumers that need similar services but cannot afford the price tag, they'll merely keep looking and likely end up here or one of the other forums or websites that offer the free DIY version of what CP provides. The choice is driven by the marketplace. CP's claim of providing Christian services is irrelevant; if their consumers found it of no value or immoral, they would stop spending the money, file complaints, and steer others away. In the varied searches I've done as I've watched this thread meander along its various tangents, I have yet to see evidence of that.

[sanantone]

No offense intended, but I think you might be giving a little too much credit to the importance of this discussion. Many companies rearrange their websites on a regular basis; it may have just been time for theirs. Whatever the reasons for a change, even if it is based on this discussion (which I personally feel is a longshot, but to each their own) changing strategies based on market movement is a time-tested business maneuver. I'm uncertain what relevance that has on the discussion?

The major difference is that I can no longer find the fee structure. What would be the reason for taking that down?

Thank you for clarifying that criticism is not aimed at the consumers, though I foresee continued dispute with the connection of being naive. Like every other family finance decision, some people choose to pay others for a service that could do themselves, while others choose to invest the time and effort to do it themselves. Like mowing grass or hiring a neighborhood kid, hiring a contractor versus renovating ourselves, paying someone to change vehicle oil or getting greasy. That argument has been made numerous times throughout the thread and overlooked. Saving money or hiring someone elses' services is a finance choice, rarely naivety. Again, though, that is personal perspective, and the root of that debate is what frequently comes to play in political discussions.

CP offers a niche service. The niche itself is minuscule in the grand scheme of the overall higher education market. They cater largely to a homeschool / high school group interested in seeking college credit at the same time. The service they offer, while you may not see the value, is clearly of value to others because they hire them, recommend them to others, and maintain subscriptions. If they were a predatory service, they would have complaints. On the contrary, they are accredited with the Better Business Bureau and have an A+ rating with no complaints for three years. CollegePlus! Review - Educational Consultants in Spring Branch, TX - BBB Business Review - BBB serving Central, Coastal, Southwest Texas and the Permian Basin Likewise, I could not find evidence of Attorney General complaints.

While I do not personally find value in CP's services because my personal circumstances did not include me in their niche, others seem to based upon strong defense of their services despite knowing about free planning alternatives provided by peers (fellow consumers) here. That is not naivety, that is personal choice. That, and the lack of consumer complaints also appears to demonstrate that their niche service offering is legitimate and of value to their consumers. That is simply business and the free market at work. For consumers that need similar services but cannot afford the price tag, they'll merely keep looking and likely end up here or one of the other forums or websites that offer the free DIY version of what CP provides. The choice is driven by the marketplace. CP's claim of providing Christian services is irrelevant; if their consumers found it of no value or immoral, they would stop spending the money, file complaints, and steer others away. In the varied searches I've done as I've watched this thread meander along its various tangents, I have yet to see evidence of that.

University of Phoenix grew to be the largest university in the country, but it doesn't mean that it's a good university even within its niche. Having more options might have something to do with its decreasing enrollment, but so does people wising up to the fact that there are, and have been for a long time, cheaper online programs with better reputations.

Anyway, I did find a couple of forums where a few people said that, if they had to do it again, they would have finished their degrees on their own. They weren't complaining about CP; they just realized that they could have easily done the same thing themselves.