Obama's America 2016

[rebel100]

America is at that awkward stage where it's too late to work within the system, and yet it's too early to shoot the bastards.

It's a quote by Claire Wolfe she's a Libertarian writer who is quite well known in some circles. Clair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Wolfe

The quote captures the feeling that things are already beyond repair and eventually patriots may have to rise up and re-take the country to fix it's ills. It also invokes the fact that we (Americans) once had to do this by force (the British).

Not much different than Jefferson's quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

[quasarvs]

It's a quote by Claire Wolfe she's a Libertarian writer who is quite well known in some circles. Clair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Wolfe

The quote captures the feeling that things are already beyond repair and eventually patriots may have to rise up and re-take the country to fix it's ills. It also invokes the fact that we (Americans) once had to do this by force (the British).

Not much different than Jefferson's quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

Thank you for explaining that quote. It clears the meaning up for me of what gnpine was talking about.

Yes, I do agree in principle with Jefferson's thought; however I had often viewed that from the perspective of Americans helping others or others helping themselves by fighting their own tyrants.
I consider the Revolution in America a one time thing, and regarding gnpine's comment, I fear that because the country is so liberal and divided over issues that another "Revolution" would turn out looking like the French revolution did; rather than turning out to be a revival of traditional American principles and ideas regarding freedom and responsibility and government.
(gnpine): Maybe that's what you meant by too soon... Regardless,

I honestly hold out hope that if Americans can learn,
--through good "teachers", in other words those who care about America and are passionate about politics and those who are willing to be winsome and win others to their point of view--
to be active and responsible citizens in their government, then America can truly return to its original principles.
Those principles that you're talking about gnpine.

[LaterBloomer]

Just curious. What original principles would those be? Would they be those of the rich, white men who spoke of liberty and justice for all, but who only let white, male property owners vote? Would those be the "principled" founding fathers who knew that slavery was wrong, but still created a constitution that not only allowed it, but gave states with slaves a disproportionate power in our government? Okay, I just deleted a LOT of my e-mail because, unlike some posters, I do not questions someone's patriotism, love of country, or intelligence because his/her opinion differs from mine. (Okay, the little me occasionally thinks that, but I try to rise above those thoughts.) I do not, however, think "the good old days" were all that great for most of the people who lived in this country. Quit looking in the rear view mirror, the best days of America are ahead of us.

[quasarvs]

Just curious. What original principles would those be? Would they be those of the rich, white men who spoke of liberty and justice for all, but who only let white, male property owners vote? Would those be the "principled" founding fathers who knew that slavery was wrong, but still created a constitution that not only allowed it, but gave states with slaves a disproportionate power in our government? Okay, I just deleted a LOT of my e-mail because, unlike some posters, I do not questions someone's patriotism, love of country, or intelligence because his/her opinion differs from mine. (Okay, the little me occasionally thinks that, but I try to rise above those thoughts.) I do not, however, think "the good old days" were all that great for most of the people who lived in this country. Quit looking in the rear view mirror, the best days of America are ahead of us.

By the way, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and politeness in your response.
Here's my response: (yes, I wrote a book here,...

The original principles that I see in America's founding are those primarily of rights through responsibility. Our government today believes in rewarding the lazy and punishing the worker. Through a corrupt social security, welfare and tax system, it fosters the idea of getting something for nothing. Just because someone is living doesn't mean they deserve to have a four bedroom house, two cars and paid vacations. Just because someone is living doesn't mean they deserve the necessities of life, food, shelter etc. The reason they do not deserve those things is because the word deserve means merited or EARNED. Let's face it, everything in life costs something, meat or vegetables to eat - costs an animal or plant's life, driving a car - costs gas, et cetera, et cetera.
The principle that you don't get something for nothing is a life principle everyone is forced to live under, therefore, for the government to give handouts from SOMEONE ELSE's money to another person without the first person's approval is wrong. The other person did not earn or deserve it. Nobody owes anybody anything/ However, when we talk about the Constitution there is an exception:
Everyone owes everybody the right to live or exist, the right to exist freely (freely under law- meaning free to the extent of not violating others rights.) and finally the right to pursue what makes them happy whether it be getting rich or just raising a family.
[Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness] These are in the Declaration and embodied in the constitutional amendments.
So, the Declaration says that we do as humans deserve the above things As Long as they do not violate those same rights of others. The Constitution backs this up with laws. They go hand in hand. The Declaration expresses people's rights and the Constitution enumerates responsibilities of citizens and government.

Now with regards to the rich, white, founding fathers... I think it is important to consider the context and time they lived in. At this time the man was the sole wage earner and provider for the house. He was the person who owned property because he EARNED it. Therefore he was given a say in government because his money, property etc. would be taxed and regulated. He had the right of say in government about his own property as it was his Pursuit of happiness, which was a protected right. Because of the culture at the time this scenario of only men voters was natural and accepted by both men and women. The man's vote was made in the interest of his wife and family and property.
Regarding slavery, this was another cultural stigma. It was ingrained as generally acceptable, just like abortion appears to be the same way today. Does that make those decisions right? No. However, those bad choices do exist.
Washington probably will remain the greatest leader in American history. After his wife died he did in fact, free his slaves long, long before the Civil War. If Washington had done something about slavery at the time of his election, he most likely would have destroyed the fragile unity in the new fragile United States thereby diminishing everyone's chances to have freedom and full rights. Americans at this time were used to this "luxury" and it was difficult to make them release it to realize others full human rights by the Constitution.

I hope you are right that the best days are yet to come to America. I just don't see how they can yet, as long as people continue living out their pursuits of happiness irresponsibly and at others expense.

[sanantone]

Washington didn't believe in political parties!

Everything changes with the context of the times now doesn't it? You can't pick and choose. Everything has to be considered within the context of the times. Some of the things in the original Constitution were outdated. Some of the beliefs of the founding fathers are outdated. The founding fathers also disagreed on a lot of things like having a strong, centralized government and religion. Some of the founding fathers thought religion was stupid.

[Publius]

Some of the founding fathers thought religion was stupid.

With respect, would you please list which ones thought this and a brief quote or something to back it up. I think you may find that even the founding fathers that were deists believed that a free nation could not survive with out a moral and religious people.

[OtherSyde]

With respect, would you please list which ones thought this and a brief quote or something to back it up. I think you may find that even the founding fathers that were deists believed that a free nation could not survive with out a moral and religious people.

They didn't think religion was stupid per se, but they did found America as a a secular nation. Also, a nation probably does need moral people in order to survive, but religion is definitely not a necessity in the new developing world; I think the sooner it becomes a relic, the better. The sooner people find realistic reasons and motivation to behave morally without having to blindly believe in magic, the better.

[Publius]

They didn't think religion was stupid per se, but they did found America as a a secular nation.

I invite you to provide evidence of your statement and say why you think that America was founded as a secular nation.

From what I've researched, that is not the case. Please note, that the following historical evidence, I've listed are just a few of the myriad of evidences.

From the very foundation:

1606 Charter for a colony in Virginia
“To make habitation... and to deduce a colony of sundry of our people into that part of America commonly called Virginia... in propagating of Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness”

1609 - Another Charter for Virginia
“The principal effect which we can desire or expect of this action is the conversion.. of the people in those parts unto the true worship of God and Christian religion.”

The Mayflower Compact (just one example from that document).
“Having undertaken for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith... [we] combine ourselves together into a civil body politic for... furtherance of the ends aforesaid.”

1629 Charter of Massachusetts
“Our said people... be so religiously, peaceably, and civilly governed [that] their good life and orderly conversation may win and incite the natives of... [that] country to the knowledge and obedience of the only true God and Savior of mankind, and the Christian faith, which... is the principal end of this plantation [colony].”

1663 Charter for Rhode Island
“Pursuing with peace and loyal minds, their sober, serious and religious intentions of Godly edifying themselves and one another in the holy Christian faith,.. a most flourishing civil state may stand and best be maintained... with a full liberty in religious concernments.”


The “Fundamental Orders of Connecticut” — The first constitution written in the United States. Also the direct antecedent of our current federal Constitution.
“Well knowing when a people are gathered together, the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people, there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God”

“Enter into combination and confederation together to maintain and perserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess... which, according to the truth of the said Gospel, is now practiced amongst us."

In 1643 the colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Plymouth and New Haven came together to form the “New England Confederation”, basically Americas first united government.
“We all came into these parts of America with one and the same end and aim, namely to advance the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

From the Founding Fathers:

Samuel Adams - Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.
(Will of Samuel Adams)

Charles Carroll - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.
(Letter written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.)

William Cushing - First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind , after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth...
(Will of William Cushing)

John Dickinson - Signer of the Constitution
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station amoung His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.
(Will of John Dickinson)

John Hancock - Signer of the Constitution
I John Hancock,... being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to mind-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament... Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of god that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth... nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God...
(Will of John Hancock)

Patrick Henry - Governor of Virginia, Patriot
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
(Will of Patrick Henry)

John Jay - First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and a humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!
(Will of John Jay)

Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer - Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer... of disposing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer.
(Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer)

Henry Knox - Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War
First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe - to that great and tremendous Jehovah, - Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite... To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection...
(Will of Henry Knox)

John Langdon - Signer of the Consitution
In the name of God, Amen. I , Joh Langdon, .. considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in the manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living... professing to believe and hop in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life...
(Will of John Langod)

And here's a small (very small) list of some founding fathers that were not only religious, but were Christian.
John Morton - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Benjamin Rush - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Roger Sherman - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Zephaniah Swift - Author of America’s First Legal Text
Jonathan Trumbull - Governor of Connecticut
John Witherspoon - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Gunning Bedford - Signer of the Constitution
Elias Boudinot - President of Congress
Jacob Broom - Signer of the Constitution
James Iredell - U.S. Supreme Court Justice
William Samuel Johnson - Signer of the Constitution
James Kent - Father of American Jurisprudence
Francis Scott Key - Author of the “Star Spangled Banner”
Robert Treat Paine - Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Timothy Pickering - Revolutionary General. Secretary of State



(I have to stop this post here cause of the max character limit)

[Publius]

(continued)
From throughout the founding of the nation:

Benjamin Rush, a founding father said:

“I sat next to John Adams in Congress, and upon my whispering to him and asking him if he thought we should succeed in our struggle with Great Britain, he answered me, “Yes—if we fear God and repent of our sins.” This anecdote, will I hope, teach my boys that it is not necessary to disbelieve Christianity or to renounce morality in order to arrive at the highest political usefulness or frame.”

John Adams, on the day after separating from Great Britain wrote to his wife:
“[This day] will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival.”

Not only did Adams foresee this, but he also wrote to his wife in what manner it should be commemorated.
“It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

When Congress approved the Declaration, it appointed John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson to create a draft for the seal to characterize the spirit of the new nation. Look at the two desist proposed:

Franklin suggested:
Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the Red Sea, and Pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: ‘Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

Jefferson proposed:
The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day, and a pillar of ire by night.

October 12, 1778 Congress issued the following act:
“Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness: Resolved, That it be, and it is hereby earnestly recommend to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof.”

Not to mention, Congress worked on created a new Bible (an American bible, not one from Great Britain). Congress approved this Bible on Sep 12, 1782, and printed in the front of the Bible, the first Bible ever printed in the USA was the congressional endorsement:
“Whereupon, Resolved, That the United States in Congress assembled... recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States.”


As I said, these are just a few of the many examples that the founding of America was not just religious in general, but Christian specifically. I could go on and on, and continue to provide examples, but until someone would like to proved contrary evidence, this should suffice. I didn't even start on all the calls to prayer that States would issue, and the mountain of other evidences. You and all America can try and take this nation down whatever path you wish. However, one thing people can't do is erase our Nations heritage, our religious heritage, our Christian heritage. Many people realize they can't erase it, so they try to cover it up, hide it. Reinvent it. Anything but expose the truth about our founding. 52 of the 55 signers of Deceleration of Independence weren't just "religious" but orthodox or evangelical Christians! When was the last time a public school taught that?

Also, a nation probably does need moral people in order to survive, but religion is definitely not a necessity in the new developing world; I think the sooner it becomes a relic, the better. The sooner people find realistic reasons and motivation to behave morally without having to blindly believe in magic, the better.

If you would, please, explain how a people are to be moral with out guidelines? What "realistic reasons" and "motivation" are referring to?

One thing I'll say, is I'm just as much against blindly believing in magic as you are. I'm sure. The only thing is, I don't "blindly" believe in Christianity or God. There are sound reasons and sense to believe and if you wish, I'd be more then happy to share some of these. Let me add, that for people who believe in things such as the Big Bang and the random rise of the this universe and humanity express a much larger amount of belief in "blind magic" as you put it.

[sanantone]

It's not hard to search the other side when you're not so one-sided. This took like 2 seconds for me to find. Being spiritual is not the same thing as being religious. Religion is organized.

freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

This article is more thorough.
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/h...of_chu.htm

There have been advances in the Big Bang Theory made in quantum physics and the String Theory. It's actually pretty interesting and goes beyond the average person's understanding of the theory just because hardly anyone actually reads up on it. I'm a Christian by the way.