Another nervous Nellie newbie question....

[cookderosa]

[QUOTE=akoik]I'm a homeschool mom, and am working on what my oldest will be doing the next few years. She is enrolled in the community college, doing dual credit. I am just now discovering the world of testing. She took the Peterson's College Math practice test and scored a 74....it took some time for me to convince her that's a GOOD score. *BG*

ANYWAY....she currently says she wants to be a lawyer. Mind you, she's 15, but this is the first reasonable goal she has stated. Here's the big question....are bachelors degrees from the Big 3 going to get her into a good law school? Like UT Austin? Not talking Ivy League, but 2nd level, ya know? We might end up going somewhere else, but I'd like to set her up with the ability to get in, at least academically, so that financial and other concerns (which we can't do anything about now) are the deciding factors.

Forgive me for this question, it's just that the whole Big 3 theory, and the beautiful way it would fit into our lives seems far too good to be true, and you know what I've always been taught about THAT!

How we go about things is very different, depending on what we will eventually do. If we're going Big 3, then she just needs to start racking up tests and credits, almost willy nilly. If she's going for an associates at the community college and then transferring to UT Austin or A&M (most likely choices) for her bachelor's, then we need to be more selective and cautious about how we proceed.

I guess part of the problem is that it's too early to really make these decisions. I've also considered having her test as if she's going to the Big 3, but then those can just be extras if she goes somewhere else. Of course, that's a lot of unnecessary money spent.





I say this respectfully, but I wouldn't allow my child to go to one of the big 3 if law school was a goal. The big 3 meet a need, and in that way, they are the BEST at what they do. That said, the "need" they meet isn't preparing young people for competitive grad school admission. This will sound offensive to many people, especially since I'm typing out about 100 words what should be written in 500, but I'll say it anyway- bright young people deserve the best start. I don't think the big 3 is a place to start, I think it's a place you go when you need to finish. The average student at TESC is aged 37. This is a group of people who have hit a road block, wanted to fill a longtime dream, or are looking for a place to bring an assortment of credit. That's not an insult, it's just the way it is. They meet a need, and they do it well. Someone here once used the phrase "assessment college" and that is an accurate description in my opinion. They are not really teaching per sey.


She can, however, still use testing. I know you already know about AP, but in this case, it might be a feather in her cap when it comes time to apply for university admission. AP scores of 4+ look OUTSTANDING and level the playing field when matched with a nice SAT score. Honestly, as a homeschooled child, she will have to prove herself a bit more than the next guy. While some colleges are very enlightened, many still assume mommy gives all A's no matter what- a bias in the transcript.
Additionally, your local 4 year college may have a pre-law undergrad major that she can complete. Within that major, she may have options that extend into AP and CLEP credit. (find out the school's cut off point for being a new admit vs. a transfer student, there are instances when too much credit could be counter productive)

[gcalvin]

I understand where Jennifer is coming from, but I agree more with loredia and zeroglory. When you consider the time and money typically invested in a more traditional school, I believe your home-schooled daughter would be better served by earning a quick, cheap Big 3 undergrad degree, then spend a year or two learning a language and traveling abroad -- perhaps doing mission work, or Peace Corps, or teaching English in a language school. Then she can come back home, work in the private sector for a while, get involved in the community and prep for the LSAT. This way, she could be going into the law school admissions process with some outstanding letters of recommendation, and a compelling biography. She'll be in better shape financially, and she'll have avoided some of the leftist indoctrination and other nonsense that goes on at typical brick and mortar schools. True, she will have missed out on the "college experience" to a great degree, but all in all, I think her education will have been better than that of her cohorts. She may not get into her first choice law school, but I have no doubt that if she scores well on the LSAT and has done these other things, she will find a school she's happy with.

My younger brother just started at University of Michigan Law School, after graduating from Wayne State University. At 38, he's a non-traditional student, but he received scholarship offers from several law schools in addition to the U-M acceptance. I recognize that this is very different from earning a Big 3 degree, but I think it illustrates that law schools seek diversity. A Big 3 degree at 19 or 20, or a Wayne State degree at 38 are both outside the norm, but in different ways -- and I think different is good in the 21st century.

-Gary-

[barcotta]

Well--you've certainly come to the right place for opinions! As each month goes by--my thoughts on this change--as I have children that will be college age in a few years. Jennifer strikes me as being the most knowlegable person in this forum with regard to the overall US educational system so I think you should weigh her opinion heavily. The good news is that there are probably several correct answers so you don't have to stress about finding only one. At the risk of muddying the waters by adding yet ANOTHER opinion, here are some of my thoughts:

1. I don't completely understand the "quick Big 3 AA" and then "transferring" to a traditional 4 year college approach. I am personally unaware of any colleges that will accept all 60 AA credits from a Big 3 college--particularly if most or all were from testing. If someone has specifics on that, please post them.

2. I am most fond, at the moment, of the quick, cheap bachelors degree leading into a masters from a "name" college. That gives you a combination of name/traditional and low-cost. You can finish a bachelors while still in High School and the masters will make your undergrad comparatively insignificant.

3. Many community colleges have programs for high school students which result in a HS diploma and an AA degree at HS graduation. That also sounds great to me.

4. I know that law schools like to see experience between undergrad and law school. Gary's plan exploits that well.

Now that you have all these opinions--I would recommend you continue to educate yourself as to these alternative educational options and then go right to the schools you are considering and find out what they think. Be prepared to vigorously defend your alternative plan. In other words, don't just shy away when they extoll the virtues of traditional education and caution you against all these "internet scams" and "online learning." Be prepared with the accreditation info and tell them what you'd like to do. You're starting early enough and it's better to know now.

The Big 3 have been around since the 70's--in continuous, uncontroversial operation. I suspect their advertising budgets aren't very large. There's nothing "to good to be true" about it. Keep digging in and learning and please report back along the way. Good luck!

[cookderosa]

strikes me as being the most knowlegable person in this forum with regard to the overall US educational system so I think you should weigh her opinion heavily. The good news is that there are probably several correct answers so you don't have to stress about finding only one. >>


Oh yeah, that's a little uncomfortable! Well, honestly, there are no correct answers, just ones that fit your needs.

After I posted my comments, I had one trailing thought that I forgot to add- and I think it's important. When we talked about the big 3 option, my assumption was that the student (your daughter) might be using it to test out of all 120 credits. So, my comments came from that situation. However, what I want to add, was that if she were to add graded credits into the equation, my opinion changes considerably.

When I applied to grad schools, nearly everyone (everyone on my list) wanted X number of graded credits. I don't know squat about law school, but if it were me, this is the one thing I would look at first. Many schools don't give a hoot about graded credits, but it's a question to ask so you have both eyes wide open.

[Lydia]

1. I don't completely understand the "quick Big 3 AA" and then "transferring" to a traditional 4 year college approach. I am personally unaware of any colleges that will accept all 60 AA credits from a Big 3 college--particularly if most or all were from testing. If someone has specifics on that, please post them.

Well basically, it's not about accepting all 60 credits from a Big 3 college. As long as you have an AA from an accredited college, then it will transfer to a public university (as an AA and not just a bunch of credits). Having that AA means that you are not bound to complete their general requirement courses, since you already have an AA. However, it doesn't mean that all your courses will apply to the major you want. You may still be left with having to take other courses to satifsy your specific major's requirement or prerequisite for another course you need to take. Also, if you completely tested out of everything, they will want all test results sent directly to them. I cannot speak for every university (I've only dealth with 2 schools in FL). At FAU, the automatically accept AA's from "ergionally" accredited schools. Anyhow, if you look in any Student Handbook, there should be a section on "Transfer Students", that will discuss this in greater detail.

Hope that helped....

[gcalvin]

I'd like to modify what I said a little bit. The difference between the Big 3 and more traditional schools is that the Big 3 are not so much institutions of instruction as institutions of assessment. At least that's how John Ebersole, president of Excelsior College, described his school at the Alumni Association meeting. So if your daughter is in need of instruction, she should probably attend a more traditional school. On the other hand, her home school history may have prepared her for the more self-directed approach required by one of the Big 3, in which case my earlier advice stands. But if you do choose a more traditional school, make sure you choose based on true quality of undergraduate instruction, and not just overall reputation. Many highly-regarded universities have relatively unskilled graduate students teaching undergraduate courses -- you can get better teaching at a community college for much less expense.

And if you are concerned about acceptance into law school, try talking to admissions people, faculty and students at the schools you are thinking about. I suspect students would be rather easy to find and to talk with. Faculty might be a little more difficult, but you have time -- look for speaking engagements and other such events that are open to the public. Talking to the admissions people may be even more difficult, so you might have to get creative there. But there are ways -- check this out for example: Law School Recruitment Forums

Good luck!

-Gary-

[Lydia]

On a side note: This thread is why I love this forum so much. Despite the extreme differences in opinion, nobody bashes or attacks the opinion of the other. Also, even after posting my own opinion, I read many others' posts and decide, "hmm, that was a good point. Hmm, maybe they're right" And before you know it, my perception of something may have just changed for the better.....lol.

[DetroitSki]

U know what u get at a B & M school?

Drunk!
Date Rape!
Peer Pressure!
Greeks!

U know what u get at the Big 3?

A degree.


nuff said

[Lydia]

U know what u get at a B & M school?

Drunk!
Date Rape!
Peer Pressure!
Greeks!

U know what u get at the Big 3?

A degree.


nuff said

WOW....

[akoik]

Wow! Thanks so much, everyone, for your responses! I've been afraid to post a thanks on this for fear of stopping the conversation! *BG*

After talking to dh, I think we will start with a multi-pronged approach (this could change as we go, and as we do more research, but it's a start at least):

1) take advantage of as much dual credit as possible at the community college (actually slightly cheaper, per class, than the CLEPs), and get as many credits as possible at this level before moving on.

2) take the CLEPs, and one DSST, that the current university of choice will accept.....need to look into Texas Tech, is it? that accepts more tests? Continue researching Texas universities and their test acceptance/transfer policies.

3) take as many distance education classes as possible from said university (or from another and transfer in).

4) finally, finish up required classes on campus.

I'm thinking that I will start trying to talk to university admission folks, explaining that while she is ready for college level work, she is definitely NOT ready, because of her age, to study on campus. I'm hoping that this angle will encourage a more forthcoming attitude in response to my questions (as opposed to, "wanna send you as little of my money as possible). *BG*

I also appreciate the seeds planted in my brain in regards to helping her find part-time work in a law office as well as encouraging more community involvement. Not sure where the time will come for it, but it's a seed planted.

Thanks so much, and please feel free to continue the conversation, it has been VERY helpful!!!
Melanie