Excelsior College School of Nursing is the largest in the nation!

[Exfactor]

When I attended Morehouse College, I took a course in Cell Biology, with the dean of the department/school of science and mathematics. In the course their were 70 students, out the 70 students enrolled only 1 student made A's on the quizzes and tests that were offered in the course. No student even made B's in the course, every one was at a C or below in the course. Personally, at the time I felt that the way the professor taught the course was why I made the grade I did in the course. He taught on the chalkboard, instead of powerpoints which my other professors would lecture from; he would draw cells on the chalkboard ect. However, looking back at it now I noticed I wasn't as dedicated in the course as I should have been. However, is it my fault I passed the course with only a "C" or should I and the other 69 students who barely passed the course or failed should we blame the professor or Morehouse College for our grades?

Matter of fact in the biology department their were specific courses with high first time fail rates, most students knew they would have to take the course a second time before they even enrolled the first time. However, should Morehouse College be of blame for the students who failed such courses or should the students be of blame?

[sanantone]

Two Oregon State University graduates failed the Army ASVAB (true story)!banghead Maybe OSU is a bad University? Maybe they are just dumb?:imwithstupid:

Hahaha! Funny, but two students is not the same as 35-40% of the students who were failing the CPNE.

When I attended Morehouse College, I took a course in Cell Biology, with the dean of the department/school of science and mathematics. In the course their were 70 students, out the 70 students enrolled only 1 student made A's on the quizzes and tests that were offered in the course. No student even made B's in the course, every one was at a C or below in the course. Personally, at the time I felt that the way the professor taught the course was why I made the grade I did in the course. He taught on the chalkboard, instead of powerpoints which my other professors would lecture from; he would draw cells on the chalkboard ect. However, looking back at it now I noticed I wasn't as dedicated in the course as I should have been. However, is it my fault I passed the course with only a "C" or should I and the other 69 students who barely passed the course or failed should we blame the professor or Morehouse College for our grades?

Matter of fact in the biology department their were specific courses with high first time fail rates, most students knew they would have to take the course a second time before they even enrolled the first time. However, should Morehouse College be of blame for the students who failed such courses or should the students be of blame?

When I taught a university course, since it was my first time teaching at that school and I was a TA, the head of the School of Criminal Justice looked at whether or not the grades in my course skewed high or low. Basically, she was looking for the Bell Curve. The ideal distribution would be a plurality scoring Cs, a little less students scoring Bs and Ds, and the lowest number of students scoring As and Fs. A C student is an average student.

When a program has a low NCLEX or state bar pass rate, it's considered a bad program. Either there are issues with the program or the admissions requirements. It's advised that prospective students stay away from schools with low NCLEX and state bar pass rates. Why is that? Princeton University has a 90% graduation rate. I guess they're too easy and shouldn't be celebrating?

[GoodYellowDogs]

But now the private colleges have figure out a way to increase the NCLEX rates. They use Hesi or TEAS for entrance (seems okay) and exit (not okay) from the nursing schools. The "scam" is that if you don't pass the final test, even though you have scored A's in your courses, you fail nursing school. Then you can't take the NCLEX. Their theory is that the HESI or TEAS are indicative of how you'll do on the NCLEX. So by dropping students, it increases their pass rates.

The problem is that you could spend $45,000 on a private nursing school, pass ALL of your nursing course, ALL of your clinicals, and fail the HESI or TEAS by one point, and be done. $45,000 in tuition and no ability to take the NCLEX or get your RN.

I think that is the next big class action suit waiting in the wings.

Hahaha! Funny, but two students is not the same as 35-40% of the students who were failing the CPNE.



When I taught a university course, since it was my first time teaching at that school and I was a TA, the head of the School of Criminal Justice looked at whether or not the grades in my course skewed high or low. Basically, she was looking for the Bell Curve. The ideal distribution would be a plurality scoring Cs, a little less students scoring Bs and Ds, and the lowest number of students scoring As and Fs. A C student is an average student.

When a program has a low NCLEX or state bar pass rate, it's considered a bad program. Either there are issues with the program or the admissions requirements. It's advised that prospective students stay away from schools with low NCLEX and state bar pass rates. Why is that? Princeton University has a 90% graduation rate. I guess they're too easy and shouldn't be celebrating?

[Exfactor]

When I taught a university course, since it was my first time teaching at that school and I was a TA, the head of the School of Criminal Justice looked at whether or not the grades in my course skewed high or low. Basically, she was looking for the Bell Curve. The ideal distribution would be a plurality scoring Cs, a little less students scoring Bs and Ds, and the lowest number of students scoring As and Fs. A C student is an average student.

When a program has a low NCLEX or state bar pass rate, it's considered a bad program. Either there are issues with the program or the admissions requirements. It's advised that prospective students stay away from schools with low NCLEX and state bar pass rates. Why is that? Princeton University has a 90% graduation rate. I guess they're too easy and shouldn't be celebrating?

So you're comparing Excelsior to Princeton? Lol. When you speak of Princeton University you are dealing with a totally different demographic than Excelsior College students. Excelsior College is a school like most of the Big 3 that provides opportunity to students that many institutions have left behind. If any school could be selective as Princeton where as they can get the creme of the crop in regard to students, any school would have better pass rates. However, that is not the case. Excelsior College is giving opportunity to students who many insitutions have left behind. If one is to take a visit to allnurses.com you can see the type of nursing students Excelsior has, many are working one and two jobs while being single parents, many had to leave their brick and mortar nursing programs due to life events, many are changing careers, many are doing it to accomplish a life long dream; all races and ethnicities, all ages; theirs even individuals who are retired who have enrolled in the program, because it has always been a life long dream for them to get their R.N. Yet, at the end of the day, these individuals are largely working and studying alone; trying to be self-learners; when self-learning is not for everyone. On Allnurses their are many individuals who have passed the NCLEX the first time, and their are individuals who it took a second time to pass. Yet, you don't hear people blaming Excelsior College because they failed, you see more individuals blaming themselves; noting they should have studied such and such more ect.

While collectively the pass rate at Excelsior College may not be great, when you start looking at individual states and their pass rate for Excelsior College you will find that Excelsior College pass rate is similar to many state schools, and have a higher pass rate in some states than many state schools. However, here in my state (Florida) Excelsior College grads can gain full licensure, and as @GoodYellowDogs stated in states like California that restricts Excelsior R.N grads you can find employment in federal facility/hospital/clinic in CA (Military, VA, prisons, etc.).

I think that is the next big class action suit waiting in the wings.

But this really wasn't a "big class action suit," it was really just some students who couldn't pass, as their life long dreams of being an R.N were crushed.

While the NCLEX is stated to be difficult, it seems like the Excelsior crowd on Allnurses felt differently about these students.

Nursing students sue Excelsior College | allnurses

[sanantone]

So you're comparing Excelsior to Princeton? Lol. When you speak of Princeton University you are dealing with a totally different demographic than Excelsior College students. Excelsior College is a school like most of the Big 3 that provides opportunity to students that many institutions have left behind. If any school could be selective as Princeton where as they can get the creme of the crop in regard to students, any school would have better pass rates. However, that is not the case. Excelsior College is giving opportunity to students who many insitutions have left behind. If one is to take a visit to allnurses.com you can see the type of nursing students Excelsior has, many are working one and two jobs while being single parents, many had to leave their brick and mortar nursing programs due to life events, many are changing careers, many are doing it to accomplish a life long dream; all races and ethnicities, all ages; theirs even individuals who are retired who have enrolled in the program, because it has always been a life long dream for them to get their R.N. Yet, at the end of the day, these individuals are largely working and studying alone; trying to be self-learners; when self-learning is not for everyone. On Allnurses their are many individuals who have passed the NCLEX the first time, and their are individuals who it took a second time to pass. Yet, you don't hear people blaming Excelsior College because they failed, you see more individuals blaming themselves; noting they should have studied such and such more ect.

While collectively the pass rate at Excelsior College may not be great, when you start looking at individual states and their pass rate for Excelsior College you will find that Excelsior College pass rate is similar to many state schools, and have a higher pass rate in some states than many state schools. However, here in my state (Florida) Excelsior College grads can gain full licensure, and as @GoodYellowDogs stated in states like California that restricts Excelsior R.N grads you can find employment in federal facility/hospital/clinic in CA (Military, VA, prisons, etc.).

Nursing students sue Excelsior College | allnurses

Yes, the demographics are different, but people in this thread are acting as if a school has no responsibility for preparing its students. I worked at a nationally accredited for-profit that admitted mostly economically disadvantaged students of color. They weren't already working as LVNs making $15-20 an hour. They wouldn't even be able to afford to pay for Excelsior out of pocket. However, they had an over 90% pass rate on the NCLEX. The rest of the programs in the school were horrible, but I have to give them credit for taking a very disadvantaged student population and educating them well enough so that they had the highest pass rate in the region beating out traditional universities with a higher percentage of middle class students.

[dmjacobsen]

Lots of interesting discussion in this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the politics behind why Excelsior is not unilaterally accepted by all states. It simply comes down to this: money. Nursing schools bring in a lot of tuition money, and states are losing that money to out of state programs. For another example, see North Carolina versus WGU. It has nothing to do with accreditation. It has to do with NC missing out on the tuition money.

Also, there's a fundamental misunderstanding as to how nursing schools operate in general. The CPNE is absolutely a method for Excelsior to keep their NCLEX pass rates up. But, as others have mentioned, traditional nursing schools use a series of HESI exams throughout the program to flunk people out, along with a comprehensive HESI at the end to catch any that may have slipped past the guards along the way. Is it right to intentionally try to wash people out? I'm on the fence. This can be a life-or-death profession. Is this flunk-out process unique to Excelsior? Absolutely not.

Having said that, and speaking as an Excelsior grad, Excelsior certainly is not for everyone. It's a tough ride, and not for those that are not self-motivated. The CPNE is actually pretty easy if you're prepared, but it's absolutely BRUTAL if you are not prepared. Excelsior could definitely do a little better screening earlier on to keep people from flunking out at this critical point.

[sanantone]

Lots of interesting discussion in this thread. Unfortunately, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the politics behind why Excelsior is not unilaterally accepted by all states. It simply comes down to this: money. Nursing schools bring in a lot of tuition money, and states are losing that money to out of state programs. For another example, see North Carolina versus WGU. It has nothing to do with accreditation. It has to do with NC missing out on the tuition money.

Also, there's a fundamental misunderstanding as to how nursing schools operate in general. The CPNE is absolutely a method for Excelsior to keep their NCLEX pass rates up. But, as others have mentioned, traditional nursing schools use a series of HESI exams throughout the program to flunk people out, along with a comprehensive HESI at the end to catch any that may have slipped past the guards along the way. Is it right to intentionally try to wash people out? I'm on the fence. This can be a life-or-death profession. Is this flunk-out process unique to Excelsior? Absolutely not.

Having said that, and speaking as an Excelsior grad, Excelsior certainly is not for everyone. It's a tough ride, and not for those that are not self-motivated. The CPNE is actually pretty easy if you're prepared, but it's absolutely BRUTAL if you are not prepared. Excelsior could definitely do a little better screening earlier on to keep people from flunking out at this critical point.

This would be plausible if it weren't for the fact that Excelsior is simply a bridge program. The vast majority of nursing programs aren't bridge programs, so Excelsior is no competition. There is also a lot of money in RN to BSN programs and, as far as I know, there are no regulatory issues with Excelsior's BSN.

I haven't really been paying attention to the North Carolina/WGU thing, but, from what I've heard, North Carolina rejected having a WGU campus. You can still use WGU degrees there. You can still be a North Carolina resident and attend WGU. Specific to nursing, I haven't heard of any issues with WGU's nursing program that is open to unlicensed applicants.

Edit: There is an issue with WGU being allowed to enroll North Carolina students temporarily, but this has to do with the federal government ruling that states can require state authorization to allow out-of-state schools to offer online programs to their students. Many traditional colleges aren't allowed to offer online programs in some states because they can't afford to pay the licensing fees for every state. To combat this, many states are joining interstate compacts. These laws mostly hurt traditional universities, especially state universities. University of Phoenix had no problem with paying to be licensed in every state. I've also heard that WGU has a history of just paying to be licensed whenever it faces a problem. It's big enough to do that.

[dmjacobsen]

This would be plausible if it weren't for the fact that Excelsior is simply a bridge program. The vast majority of nursing programs aren't bridge programs, so Excelsior is no competition. There is also a lot of money in RN to BSN programs and, as far as I know, there are no regulatory issues with Excelsior's BSN.

What would be plausible? I'm missing the argument here. LPNs would have to either go through a local direct-entry program or a local RN-to-BSN program if Excelsior is not an option. Depending on where you live, I'm betting you'll find that LPNs make up no small portion of RN program applicants. So, yes, Excelsior is competition for those candidates. Paramedics are also flocking to nursing school in droves -- again, depending on your area -- so, there again, a loss of candidates for local programs.

Excelsior's BSN is not an entry level program. There is no regulatory issue because the vast majority of states (perhaps all states) do not track your education after initial RN licensure. Further, RN to BSN programs in general do not have the draw that direct-entry programs have, because there is little incentive for nurses in non-Magnet facilities to obtain their BSN. Therefore, considerably less tuition money is lost. Further still, if you believe that BSN vs ADN is the issue, why is Indiana State University's LPN-to-BSN not accepted in some states, many of which are the same ones that have an issue with Excelsior?

Other than politics and loss of revenue, what reasonable purpose would a state have in overriding ACEN's judgment in determining a program's fitness for training up nurses?

Edit: There is an issue with WGU being allowed to enroll North Carolina students temporarily, but this has to do with the federal government ruling that states can require state authorization to allow out-of-state schools to offer online programs to their students. Many traditional colleges aren't allowed to offer online programs in some states because they can't afford to pay the licensing fees for every state. To combat this, many states are joining interstate compacts. These laws mostly hurt traditional universities, especially state universities. University of Phoenix had no problem with paying to be licensed in every state. I've also heard that WGU has a history of just paying to be licensed whenever it faces a problem. It's big enough to do that.

So, are you suggesting that perhaps the state is missing out on revenue to those state universities? I think I've read a similar argument elsewhere in this thread. Why do you think WGU is establishing so many state-based programs? The state-specific financial aid to students is a nice byproduct, but that's typically not a significant amount of money to the individual student. State-based programs keeps tuition money -- especially federal financial aid -- in the state.

I would love to believe that revenue isn't the big issue in these cases. It would give me more faith in humanity.

[sanantone]

Indiana State University has the same problem because they are bridging LVNs to RNs by distance.

Excelsior's ADN program is only competition to bridge programs. I doubt that states would go out of their way to reduce competition to the very few bridge programs they have. There are waiting lists and low acceptance rates for traditional programs, including the ones in states that license Excelsior students. They have more than enough applicants.

[dmjacobsen]

Indiana State University has the same problem because they are bridging LVNs to RNs by distance.

Excelsior's ADN program is only competition to bridge programs. I doubt that states would go out of their way to reduce competition to the very few bridge programs they have. There are waiting lists and low acceptance rates for traditional programs, including the ones in states that license Excelsior students. They have more than enough applicants.

While I perhaps don't have as much experience as some others on this forum on the topic of nursing schools, my limited experience has shown me that nursing programs do show a preference to LPNs when considering admissions. Nursing schools don't just want applicants. They want applicants that can make the cut. An LPN, having already successfully completed one nursing program, is a better bet than someone "off the street", if all other factors are the same.

I would contend that you are absolutely wrong in your assessment that LPN-to-RN bridge programs only compete with other bridge programs. For this to be true, it would also have to be true that LPNs would and could only obtain their RN through such bridge programs.