Did this Excelsior Admissions Counselor just lie to me?

[KittenMittens]

Value isn't derived from what you pay for something, it's derived from what you get out of something. If you would get the same result from a $15,000 program that you wouldn't from a $75,000 program, why would you prefer the latter even if you're not the one footing the bill?

If that was the case, then Ferraris, Rolls Royces, Aston Martins, or designer clothes like Gucci, Versace, etc. should have no intrinsic value, but people judge these products as “superior” goods” even though a Camry or some clothes from Wal-Mart can serve the job too.

Name and brand have a powerful impact on people’s perception of things - an education from two schools can be equal in quality, but the school that is better known is likely going to have more of an impact in how employers, graduate schools, etc perceive you. It’s not the end all be all, but I would hardly discount brand name.

And this is not a hypothetical. I liked the PhD in Leadership and Change from Antioch University, I met some of their admissions people and was impressed. But their program was $75,000. When I discovered that Cumberlands would meet my needs just as well at 1/5 the cost, it would have been crazy for me to still consider Antioch. And I would have felt that way even if I were spending someone else's money.

If a combat veteran wants to work on Wall Street and gets into Wharton's MBA program, sure, I get that. In that case it's expensive but it's the best, and it's necessary to reach specific career goals. But I don't agree that in most cases we draw that straight a line to connect career goals, program quality, and tuition fees.

When you go to Wharton’s MBA program, you’re not necessarily getting a better education than one from where you can get from a no name school, or some books from the library. Most learning is done on your own. What you’re getting is the brand name which opens doors in industry, fundraising, and so on. You’re also get access to the alumni network. Same thing goes with J.D. programs. This doesn't matter so much, of course, with STEM kind of programs. But there is a correlation between cost of a program, and prestige of the program. Not all expensive programs are that great, which is commonly the case, but a lot, if not practically all, quality programs with strong reputation tend to be more expensive than typical. As they say, you get what you pay for, though it’s probably good financial and economic sense to save the benefits for programs that can pay for tuition, room and board, fees, books, etc. Why use it all on a cheap <$10,000 program which wouldn't even cover room and board since it's all online? I guess if one doesn’t intend to go to graduate school, it’s fine, but I see it as smart financial planning for the future.

[SteveFoerster]

If that was the case, then Ferraris, Rolls Royces, Aston Martins, or designer clothes like Gucci, Versace, etc. should have no intrinsic value, but people judge these products as “superior” goods” even though a Camry or some clothes from Wal-Mart can serve the job too. Name and brand have a powerful impact on people’s perception of things - an education from two schools can be equal in quality, but the school that is better known is likely going to have more of an impact in how employers, graduate schools, etc perceive you. It’s not the end all be all, but I would hardly discount brand name.

I would agree that, all other things being equal, a brand name tends to offers better return. I chose my MA in part because of this, it was slightly more than the comparable program at Fort Hays but I decided that a modest premium was worthwhile because I expected to be professionally active in the Washington, D.C. area where GWU's alumni base is strongest.

The danger lies in assuming that this is typical. There are well regarded schools that are fairly affordable, and schools that are manifestly unremarkable that are extremely expensive. You keep insisting that "there is a correlation between cost of a program", but particularly when it comes to online programs if there is such a positive correlation then it's extremely weak.

If you don't mind me asking, since you've made it very clear that you place a high value on prestige, why did you choose to earn a second bachelor's degree from Charter Oak? Obviously as an alumnus I'm not going to argue that one shouldn't enroll at good old Charter Oak, but I recognize it's hardly a name brand. Among those familiar with international higher education the University of Delhi is significantly more prestigious and should have opened enough doors for postgraduate study even in the U.S., so why bother?

[KittenMittens]

I would agree that, all other things being equal, a brand name tends to offers better return. I chose my MA in part because of this, it was slightly more than the comparable program at Fort Hays but I decided that a modest premium was worthwhile because I expected to be professionally active in the Washington, D.C. area where GWU's alumni base is strongest.

The danger lies in assuming that this is typical. There are well regarded schools that are fairly affordable, and schools that are manifestly unremarkable that are extremely expensive. You keep insisting that "there is a correlation between cost of a program", but particularly when it comes to online programs if there is such a positive correlation then it's extremely weak.

Not a direct correlation between cost of the program and "quality." Just that more expensive programs have more resources, more degrees to major in, and could be more prestigious. That's why I said before that not all expensive programs are that great. All I'm saying is that if the post-9/11 GI benefits are worth as high as $200,000, compared to say COSC or TESC which are like $3,000 - $5,000, it is a large amount of educational benefits that can be used down the road. Here's an example where it would cover $55,000 a year from NYU which is one of the most expensive schools in the country and a top one so $165,000 total. They cover so much room and board per month ($3,744), that you could cut it in half and live in Brooklyn, and pay for the rest of the tuition.

So you can see where I'm coming from when I say that those benefits are worth a lot of money, and spending a few grand for the degree is better than burning up those benefits (but to each her/his own of course)

If you don't mind me asking, since you've made it very clear that you place a high value on prestige, why did you choose to earn a second bachelor's degree from Charter Oak? Obviously as an alumnus I'm not going to argue that one shouldn't enroll at good old Charter Oak, but I recognize it's hardly a name brand. Among those familiar with international higher education the University of Delhi is significantly more prestigious and should have opened enough doors for postgraduate study even in the U.S., so why bother?

It's not that I place a high value on prestige, it's that society, and employers at large, for the most part, place a high value on it to varying degrees. So it's more a personal reaction based on how the system is. Though I don't think it's the end all/be all of things.

Yes, I agree that neither of the three schools are too prestigious, but they're regionally accredited which is what counts. My degree from India was not "regionally accredited" and my employer, which is the State of New York, required this credential if I wanted to advance in my career. Like you mentioned, DU is a very reputable and internationally reknown school, but unfortunately the dumb bureaucracy that is New York State will not accept a degree that is outside of the country, even from Oxford or Cambridge. So any regionally accredited degree will get you farther than one that is international at least with the federal or state government. Of course, you can get a WES evaluation to have credits transfer in, but some job positions require the Bachelor's degree as minimum experience.

[Leherself]

For myself personally, it made sense to use my GI Bill for Excelsior for a few reasons -

One, I don't ever plan to "go" to university. The only schooling I intend to do is the kind that I can manage from where I am, and without excessively interfering with my work schedule. Regardless of how "prestigious" a B&M degree might be - if it required me to uproot myself and quit my job, that would be a cost of around $75,000 a year in lost wages alone, and there's no guarantee that I would be able to get a better job upon graduation (or hell, even a comparable one). Since I'm already limiting myself to online schools, I might as well go with one that allows me to graduate as quickly as possible, so that I can get that oh-so-important piece of paper and hopefully qualify myself for a promotion.

Two, I actually feel that I am getting the maximum benefit I can from the GI Bill. By simultaneously enrolling at Excelsior (mostly Uexcel exams), and a local B&M school, I make myself eligible for the full monthly housing allowance. By the time I finish my degree program (hopefully this summer), I will have pocketed about $20,000 for attending college (a little over $2000 a month - I live in a high cost of living area. That's a nice chunk of change when you consider that it's in addition to my regular paychecks). That's money in *my* pocket - not tuition dollars paid to a school. I don't see how having the government pay a school higher tuition rates would really benefit me... but getting paid *myself* to attend school recently assisted me in putting a down payment on a house, which I think is *amazing*. And I've only used about 1/3 of my GI Bill benefit so far.

It would probably be impossible to do something similar for a graduate degree though - since it's much harder to transfer credit at the graduate level, it's unlikely that I'll be able to simultaneously enroll in local and online classes for grad school (in order for the GI Bill to pay for something like that, the courses taken at both schools have to be going toward the same degree program). Since none of the local schools offer what I'm interested in studying at the graduate level, and I wouldn't be able to do a full course load in person while working full time anyway, I'll be doing that degree entirely online - online rate monthly housing allowance is only about $700 a month. But since I also still have tuition assistance, as well as access to free graduate coursework through my job, it makes more sense for me to use my GI Bill as a money maker during my undergrad, then switch to "merely" going to school for free for grad school. It's not quite as exciting as getting paid to go to school, but I certainly can't complain . And then I can save the other 2/3 of my GI Bill for something else (just can't save it for too long - the benefits expire once you've been out of the active duty military for 15 years).

I think that for people who are entering a new career field, whether they're just entering the workforce for the first time, or changing jobs, having a name brand education can help them get their foot in the door. But for someone like me - someone with almost a decade of experience in a single career field where I intend to stay for the forseeable future? I just need the piece of paper. Now, I need a legitimate, accredited piece of paper. But at my level a bachelor's degree is just about checking a box. It could be from Harvard, and it would still only be a bachelor's and meet the absolute minimum educational requirement for my next pay grade. It's not going to impress anyone. At my level, the only way someone gets interested in my education is if I have a Ph.D. They don't even count education as a replacement for experience unless it's at least 30 graduate credits *beyond* the Master's degree. My work experience is what qualifies me for my current position, not my education - it's just that I've hit the ceiling of how far I can get without any formal credentials at all. Really, it's almost like a high school diploma - for the most part, no one cares where you got it, and no one is really impressed by it, but eventually if you don't have one it can be a big problem.

**shrug** Everyone's situation is different, and everyone has different goals.