2 COVID Vaccines Approved, End to Pandemic in Sight??

[asianphd]

I am Indonesian. So I really do not expect I will obtain the vaccine at least for the next 12 months!
Well, at least I have much to do. Also, I am a bit introverted and I have family in my house. I have been studied for at least 8 hours daily for about 5 months. If this continues for 12 months, my knowledge should gain tremendously. I just need to keep my sanity in check and do some workout (which I don't currently )

[dfrecore]

Honestly people, there is not one side or the other. We can open up the economy, keep kids in schools, AND wear masks and social distance to keep people safe.

With suicides up as much as 70% in some places, less cancer screenings, less doctor's visits for routine visits, fewer childhood immunizations happening - we are protecting everyone from covid at the expense of other lives. I have diabetes, have kept it in check for more than 10 years, going to the doctor 3x a year for that entire time. I haven't had my A1C tested since last December. I know MANY people who have not had important screenings for things since prior to covid; mammograms, skin checks, PSA testing. If I die from diabetes-related complications due to the shutdown not allowing me my medical care, isn't that JUST as important as if I died from covid? If many many millions around the world die due to starvation, isn't that just as important as the people who died from covid? If kids are isolated and commit suicide, isn't that important too? If many more old people in retirement homes are dying due to loneliness now, does that not count as important?

People act like shutdowns are THE way to fix this problem, and not only hasn't this been proven by science, it doesn't take into account anything else that's going on. You have to look at these things as part of a whole, you cannot ONLY look at Covid in a vacuum. Doing so is childish, and ineffective.

And, we cannot do this forever. Nor can we do this every time a new pandemic comes along. We are going to have to learn to live with it, cope with it, and mitigate it as much as we can. That's our only hope. Shutdowns cannot and will not work.

[LevelUP]

I am Indonesian. So I really do not expect I will obtain the vaccine at least for the next 12 months!
Well, at least I have much to do. Also, I am a bit introverted and I have family in my house.  I have been studied for at least 8 hours daily for about 5 months. If this continues for 12 months, my knowledge should gain tremendously. I just need to keep my sanity in check and do some workout (which I don't currently )

[Seagull]

Honestly people, there is not one side or the other.  We can open up the economy, keep kids in schools, AND wear masks and social distance to keep people safe.

With suicides up as much as 70% in some places, less cancer screenings, less doctor's visits for routine visits, fewer childhood immunizations happening - we are protecting everyone from covid at the expense of other lives.  I have diabetes, have kept it in check for more than 10 years, going to the doctor 3x a year for that entire time.  I haven't had my A1C tested since last December.  I know MANY people who have not had important screenings for things since prior to covid; mammograms, skin checks, PSA testing.  If I die from diabetes-related complications due to the shutdown not allowing me my medical care, isn't that JUST as important as if I died from covid?  If many many millions around the world die due to starvation, isn't that just as important as the people who died from covid?  If kids are isolated and commit suicide, isn't that important too?  If many more old people in retirement homes are dying due to loneliness now, does that not count as important?

People act like shutdowns are THE way to fix this problem, and not only hasn't this been proven by science, it doesn't take into account anything else that's going on.  You have to look at these things as part of a whole, you cannot ONLY look at Covid in a vacuum.  Doing so is childish, and ineffective.

And, we cannot do this forever.  Nor can we do this every time a new pandemic comes along.  We are going to have to learn to live with it, cope with it, and mitigate it as much as we can.  That's our only hope.  Shutdowns cannot and will not work.

Agree, and the shutdown is also perceived differently from each person, screenings haven't stopped, one can easily schedule and have it done. I have gone to dentist and not stopped all my physicals just because of shutdowns. Most people are just afraid while those who have to go to work lead a normal life, so I don't understand how shutdowns are affecting people differently, but in the end it is always the poorest that suffer the most. Public schools close while private schools are allowed in person full time. So yes there is a difference between rich and poor and location. In big cities where most of the poor are located there are more restrictions. California governor restricts all while he sends his kids to private school and dines at restaurant. It is like the hunger games, the elite are always free and rules do not apply to them.

[StoicJ]

Most of the people I know from all walks think that this is a sham because the approach is to shut everything down, which is causing mental health crises in young people, while telling people who criticize this that they want innocent people to die and suffer. I know this because when I said, "Why not push for masks and distancing but keep the economy open to avoid a depression and stave off major mental health issues," I was blocked by two family members and three long-term friends who claimed that's what I wanted.

Ignorance doesn't have political boundaries. Shutdowns are one approach, but it shouldn't have been the first or only approach. A shutdown is the last option available when people aren't capable of doing the right thing on their own. (Well, the last option before martial law.) Had everyone put aside the politics and just worked together as Americans to mask up when around other people, respect physical boundaries, and upgrade HVAC systems or stagger in-office days somehow, we could have avoided shutting down at all. Nobody wanted to spend the money for the HVAC upgrades, but I bet if they knew how much they'd lose by not doing it, they would have jumped at the chance. That is also where a much smaller amount of government stimulus money could have gone instead of sending checks to everyone and providing all those business loans.

Even if 75% of the people do their part, the 25% who won't are the ones who forced the shutdowns. It applies everywhere, not just the US, but a few countries have managed to reduce their incidence rates and keep them down by following a plan. The problem is, we never had a plan or a bipartisan appeal to people to make it understandable to everyone. I'd like to believe that people in the US would have responded more favorably to masking and distancing had they been given a comprehensive plan in March along with realistic guidelines as to what to expect and how to keep each other safe while keeping company doors open. Particularly if they realized that the alternative was a long-term economic shutdown that would cripple so many people financially and cause all manner of psychological issues.

I remember the early propaganda. Probably it was good-faith concern. The covid-19 death rate was in the 15-20% range. 1 in 5-6 people who contracted the virus were going to DIE. It was highly contagious. Projections were that regardless of what was done, 80+% of the U.S. population was going to get it. Then the mortality rate figures started dropping week by week. Some good news. But still, the rate was high enough that if we didn't "flatten the curve" hospitals would be overwhelmed. We didn't have enough beds, ventilators, or staff to handle the big surge. Deaths would spike. Essential services could not be met, and even more people would die. Face diaper and anti-social distancing hysteria. Then the reported mortality rate dropped. And dropped. And dropped.

There could have been no good comprehensive plan in place in March. I think work-from-home was a rational step. Voluntary anti-social distancing, nothing wrong with it. Upgrade HVAC? I've worked in HVAC and we upgraded systems. It was fairly inexpensive, but we installed primarily to reduce allergens, not stop viruses.

Coronavirus is dangerous. Many viruses are. The shutdowns are not necessary. The people who won't stay home and wear a mask did not force the shutdown. If YOU are extremely fearful, YOU can take precautions to the extent you are comfortable with, personally. You can have products delivered to your home. You can buy high-quality PPE. Good stuff worn properly, that is actually effective. Not what you see 95% of the population wearing, and wearing improperly. This really is largely theater. If the numbers were what was being hyped at the beginning of this, yeah, you would see almost complete acceptance. Why do you not see serious widespread adoption? Because although there is a huge and vocal portion of the population that buys into the narrative, most people sense this is a sham. They won't say it because they don't feel safe expressing themselves. They'd rather derp along and not cause a fuss.

You said earlier hospital staff was overwhelmed. Where is this? I am in Texas. My wife worked in hospitals for 15+ years, until very recently. She stills talks with ex-co-workers daily. She's hearing about how slow they are. Lots of her nurse friends agree that this is massively overhyped.

Anyway, I am certainly not convinced. What would convince me? Anecdotes certainly won't. Numbers might. How many people in the U.S. died in each month of this year? How does that compare to previous years? What if you break the numbers down by month for the last several years, by primary cause of death- auto, medical error, cancer, heart disease, flu, etc? Suicide, drug overdose, murder?

Anyone have a link to a chart that breaks down deaths by cause, for each month of the year, for the last few years?

[ss20ts]

Honestly people, there is not one side or the other.  We can open up the economy, keep kids in schools, AND wear masks and social distance to keep people safe.

With suicides up as much as 70% in some places, less cancer screenings, less doctor's visits for routine visits, fewer childhood immunizations happening - we are protecting everyone from covid at the expense of other lives.  I have diabetes, have kept it in check for more than 10 years, going to the doctor 3x a year for that entire time.  I haven't had my A1C tested since last December.  I know MANY people who have not had important screenings for things since prior to covid; mammograms, skin checks, PSA testing.  If I die from diabetes-related complications due to the shutdown not allowing me my medical care, isn't that JUST as important as if I died from covid?  If many many millions around the world die due to starvation, isn't that just as important as the people who died from covid?  If kids are isolated and commit suicide, isn't that important too?  If many more old people in retirement homes are dying due to loneliness now, does that not count as important?

People act like shutdowns are THE way to fix this problem, and not only hasn't this been proven by science, it doesn't take into account anything else that's going on.  You have to look at these things as part of a whole, you cannot ONLY look at Covid in a vacuum.  Doing so is childish, and ineffective.

And, we cannot do this forever.  Nor can we do this every time a new pandemic comes along.  We are going to have to learn to live with it, cope with it, and mitigate it as much as we can.  That's our only hope.  Shutdowns cannot and will not work.

Agree, and the shutdown is also perceived differently from each person, screenings haven't stopped, one can easily schedule and have it done. I have gone to dentist and not stopped all my physicals just because of shutdowns. Most people are just afraid while those who have to go to work lead a normal life, so I don't understand how shutdowns are affecting people differently, but in the end it is always the poorest that suffer the most. Public schools close while private schools are allowed in person full time. So yes there is a difference between rich and poor and location. In big cities where most of the poor are located there are more restrictions. California governor restricts all while he sends his kids to private school and dines at restaurant. It is like the hunger games, the elite are always free and rules do not apply to them.

You're very lucky you've been able to schedule anything. In my state, doctor's offices were closed for months. Screenings are still very difficult to schedule. Dentists were closed even longer. They're still restricted in what they can do procedure wise. 

My state completely shutdown except for essentials for months. This was government mandated. We are still only partially reopened and over the last few weeks we've had a lot more restrictions again. We have statewide restrictions, countywide restrictions, and city/town restrictions. It's an absolute nightmare for many people. This doesn't just impact large cities. It has impacted municipalities of all sizes.

[dfrecore]

Anyway, I am certainly not convinced. What would convince me? Anecdotes certainly won't. Numbers might. How many people in the U.S. died in each month of this year? How does that compare to previous years? What if you break the numbers down by month for the last several years, by primary cause of death- auto, medical error, cancer, heart disease, flu, etc? Suicide, drug overdose, murder?

Anyone have a link to a chart that breaks down deaths by cause, for each month of the year, for the last few years?

If you go to the CDC website to look for this info, I can tell you that THIS year, they are not tracking Flu deaths.  Flu is normally a large number of people, but all of a suddent, they're not tracking it? Why not? (I have a guess).

---

Agree, and the shutdown is also perceived differently from each person, screenings haven't stopped, one can easily schedule and have it done. I have gone to dentist and not stopped all my physicals just because of shutdowns. Most people are just afraid while those who have to go to work lead a normal life, so I don't understand how shutdowns are affecting people differently, but in the end it is always the poorest that suffer the most. Public schools close while private schools are allowed in person full time. So yes there is a difference between rich and poor and location. In big cities where most of the poor are located there are more restrictions. California governor restricts all while he sends his kids to private school and dines at restaurant. It is like the hunger games, the elite are always free and rules do not apply to them.

Screenings stopped in MANY places for a very long time.  I wasn't able to see my doctor for months and months.  I wasn't able to go to the dentist except for emergencies for many months.

The poor definitely will suffer the most.  Here in the US, it will be the lack of education for kids.  Many non-poor people have ways around the school shutdowns - either they switched to private schools, homeschooled, made "pods" with other families, or just had the time to sit with their kids for zoom crap because they could work from home.  Many poorer people don't have the education to help their kids themselves, or have to work outside of the home, and can't help their kids.  Distance-learning with Covid has been a disaster from day 1, and will continue to be that for YEARS to come.  I know my own kid regressed in math quite a bit, and he's a junior in HS - I can't imagine having a little kid just learning to read or add.  Or who can't do their schoolwork on their own at all.

And the entire reason schools didn't come back fully in-person this fall was teachers unions.  100%.  Because private schools are doing just fine, kids are going to school daily, and schools are not "super-spreader" events.  States where kids came back in-person are doing fine. Again, not spreading covid like crazy.  The unions are the ones ruining kids lives.

[rachel83az]

Here's a CDC page about excess death rates in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

Here's another one from a site that does nothing but collect stats. Worldwide data available: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

And another statistics-based site: https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/20/cdc-...-covid-19/

An article from Johns Hopkins explaining stats; this one is about 3 months old so the numbers are going to be different now. But it does a good job of explaining what the statistics mean and also why concern is warranted: https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidi...eaths-cdc/

This one lets you do a state-by-state comparison of 2020 vs. the average from 2014-2019: https://healthcostinstitute.org/hcci-res...c-by-state Interestingly, there was a HUGE dip for the US as a whole in March as people (mostly) stayed home and didn't get into car accidents or otherwise engage in potentially risky behaviors. Some states, like California, have mostly managed to keep this year below average. Others, like Georgia and Maryland, have been pretty consistently above-average.

[dfrecore]

Here's a CDC page about excess death rates in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

Here's another one from a site that does nothing but collect stats. Worldwide data available: https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

And another statistics-based site: https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/20/cdc-...-covid-19/

An article from Johns Hopkins explaining stats; this one is about 3 months old so the numbers are going to be different now. But it does a good job of explaining what the statistics mean and also why concern is warranted: https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidi...eaths-cdc/

This one lets you do a state-by-state comparison of 2020 vs. the average from 2014-2019: https://healthcostinstitute.org/hcci-res...c-by-state Interestingly, there was a HUGE dip for the US as a whole in March as people (mostly) stayed home and didn't get into car accidents or otherwise engage in potentially risky behaviors. Some states, like California, have mostly managed to keep this year below average. Others, like Georgia and Maryland, have been pretty consistently above-average.

When you can show that they didn't fudge any numbers, maybe I'll believe some of this stuff.  For instance, if you test positive on the quickie test, and then go get it confirmed, do they count that as 2 positive cases?  I've heard yes.  If someone goes to the hospital for something, and tests positive, even though they aren't there for that reason, do they count it as a Covid hospitalization?  Again, I've heard yes - for people giving birth, having a broken leg, etc.  For deaths, I've heard from lots of people that their relatives were listed as Covid deaths even though they died WITH Covid rather than FROM Covid.  A friend's husband had a heart attack, no Covid symptoms - not only did they refuse to do an autopsy when the wife thought that he might have been poisoned by someone (for good reason), they put Covid on his death certificate even though he had zero symptoms.  She was mad and tried to fight it, but they wouldn't budge.  When hospitals are given money to put someone on a ventilator, my guess is they're doing that whether people need it or not (or at the very least, writing down that they were on a ventilator).

Until you can show me that they are straight-shooters in reporting the numbers, I'm not buying what the government is selling.  Sorry.

[rachel83az]

The links I shared are just EXCESS deaths. This is completely decoupled from covid testing and whether or not covid was listed as a cause on the death certificate.